Reincarnation Within Monotheism?

[Amica]

Salaam/Shallom/Peace to all--

Please excuse if this topic has been discussed before. Some claim there are verses in the Holy Scriptures (The Bible and The Qur'an) that point to the reincarnation. They cite the following verses:

THE BIBLE:

"But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him."
(Mark 9:13)
"For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come." (Matt 11:13-14)

"But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him…" Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.
(Matt 17:12-13)

As he went along he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" (John 9:1-2)

Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked I shall return there. (Job 1:21)

…when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor. (Hebrews 7:10)

THE QUR'AN

Unlike the Bible, Qur'an is very difficult to understand and requires lots of language study to have a clear understanding of its language. I am continually told that the translation of the interpretation of the Qur'an often does not come close to its Arabic meaning. Nevertheless, the most common "supportive" verses cited for reincarnation in the Qur'an are:

"How can you make denial of Allah, who made you live again when you died, will make you dead again, and then alive again, until you finally return to him?" (Sura 2, verse 28)

"God is the one who created you all, then provided you sustenance, then will cause you to die, then will bring you to life." (Sura 11 verse 38)

"Surely it is God who splits the seed and the stone, bringing the living from the dead; and it is God who brings the dead from living."(Sura 6 v. 95)

"For We give life to the dead, and We record what they sent before and what they left after them: and We have taken account of all things." (Sura 36, v. 12)


If there is no such teaching in the monotheistic faiths, how do we account for people who "remember" past lives? Jinn/demonic possession? False memories? Super memories? Fantasies and delusions?

Your thoughts?

 

[AdvaitaZen]

"finally return to him" should be the take away here

The details are not so important, and thus are not emphasized in Abrahamic traditions, it is the returning to God, the ceasing of separation, tawhid or unity/union which is the point.

All else only distracts from the journey home.

Look at Mohammed in the cave as your inspiration, he has permitted his conscious dissolution in meditation and thus found truth. Become again utterly pure, without all that creates distance from That and allow love to take over, it already flows to the absolute.

 

[Amica]

I must say that the Surah 2, verse 28 of the Noble Qur'an in Bosnian language is as follows: ""How can you not believe in Allah, you--who were nothing and He gave you life; after which (then) He will cause you to die and will bring you back to life; then to Him you will return."

This is just an example of the differences in translation of the Arabic version. When reading the English version of 2:28 I one gets the impression that multiple deaths and lives are implied. The Bosnian version, however says: humans were non-existent, then God created them. Later, they will live and die, and will be resurrected. After the resurrection they return to God for their second life (eternity in Hell or Heaven).

 

[AdvaitaZen]

Heaven is here, now.

We choose hell by clinging to our identification with the temporary.

Seeing all around us will cease, only fear arises without knowing the divine.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Amica —

Some claim there are verses in the Holy Scriptures (The Bible and The Qur'an) that point to the reincarnation. They cite the following verses ...

But they rather assume the verses refer to reincarnation, because that's what they're looking for, or, influenced by other traditions, that is what they assume, or seek to prove.

There are other verses that flatly refute the notion, notably Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment" and Our Lord's discourse on the 18 who died when the tower fell at Siloe (Luke 13).

Certainly, we have no record of any Christian tradition of teaching reincarnation, although we have plenty of references of its refutation in other philosophies, including the orthodox teaching in regard to the verses to which you refer:
Irenaeus of Lyon (189) "We may undermine [the Hellenists'] doctrine as to transmigration from body to body by this fact ... Plato ... attempted no kind of proof, but simply replied dogmatically that when souls enter into this life they are caused to drink of oblivion by that demon who watches their entrance, before they effect an entrance into the bodies. It escaped him that he fell into another, greater perplexity. For if the cup of oblivion, after it has been drunk, can obliterate the memory of all the deeds that have been done, how, O Plato, do you obtain the knowledge of this fact" (Against Heresies 2:33:1-2).
Tertullian (197) Apology 48 ridicules the idea.
Origen (229) "[Scripture says] 'And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" [John 1:21] and he said, "I am not."' No one can fail to remember in this connection what Jesus says of John: 'If you will receive it, this is Elijah, who is to come' [Matt. 11:14]. How then does John come to say to those who ask him, 'Are you Elijah?'--'I am not'? . . . one might say that John did not know that he was Elijah. This will be the explanation of those who find in our passage a support for their doctrine of reincarnation, as if the soul clothed itself in a fresh body and did not quite remember its former lives. . . . [H]owever, a churchman, who repudiates the doctrine of reincarnation as a false one and does not admit that the soul of John was ever Elijah, may appeal to the above-quoted words of the angel, and point out that it is not the soul of Elijah that is spoken of at John's birth, but the Spirit and power of Elijah" (Commentary on John 6:7).
"As for the spirits of the prophets, these are given to them by God and are spoken of as being in a manner their property (slaves), as 'The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets' [1 Cor. 14:32] and 'The Spirit of Elijah rested upon Elisha' [2 Kgs. 2:15]. Thus, it is said, there is nothing absurd in supposing that John, 'in the Spirit and power of Elijah,' turned the hearts of the fathers to the children and that it was on account of this Spirit that he was called 'Elijah who is to come'" (Ibid).
229 AD Origen "If the doctrine [of reincarnation] was widely current, ought not John to have hesitated to pronounce upon it, lest his soul had actually been in Elijah? And here our churchman will appeal to history, and will bid his antagonists [to] ask experts in the . . . doctrines of the Hebrews if they do really entertain such a belief. For if it should appear that they do not, then the argument based on that supposition is shown to be quite baseless" (Ibid).
Origen also refutes the notion in his Commentaries on Matthew.
Theosophists spread the error that he did teach reincarnation. This arose when Geddes MacGregor said that he did. When asked to evidence his claim, it seemed torest on the fact that because Geddes believed in it, Origen must have done!

Among others are Arnobius (305), Lactantius (317), Gregory of Nyssa (379), Ambrose of Milan (380), John Chrysostom (391), Basil the Great (393) ... the list goes on.

In each case, the argument is against a pagan authority, not a Christian heresy. Western Christianity did not touch on the issue until the 20th century when all manner of flawed interpretations of Scripture began to gain credence. The Orthodox never mention it at all, refuting it flat.

Thomas

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Reincarnation is completely compatible with monotheism. There is no conflict at all.

 

[AdvaitaZen]

There are other verses that flatly refute the notion, notably Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment" and Our Lord's discourse on the 18 who died when the tower fell at Siloe (Luke 13).

True death is in union with Spirit/Allah, which can only be once for each soul.

Eternal life is not death, it is reincarnation in heaven.

Whether we are in heaven or on earth, how long can we suffer separateness?

 

[Thomas]

Hi Nick —

Reincarnation is completely compatible with monotheism. There is no conflict at all.

Where monotheism is founded on a dualist system that sees a fundamental separation between spirit and matter (such as Platonism), and where matter is seen as a 'necessary evil', that is true.

But reincarnation as it is commonly understood and expressed in the West, is incompatible with Christian doctrine, as the latter is an holistic system which regards the body — and by extension creation — as something which has its place in the Divine Scheme, and not as something disposable. Indeed, the created order is essentially good, a Divine Theophany, and humanity, as the union of spirit and matter, stands higher than the angels.

Thus we have Resurrection ...

That is why reincarnation, or metempsychosis (as it was known in the West), never found a place in Christianity. Indeed, it was never an issue until the close of the 20th century, and only then in the West. The Orthodox Patriarchates dismiss it without need for further argument — the Fathers have said all that needs to be said.

I can provide the references to the Fathers in which the idea had been discussed and dismissed, if you require.

 

[wil]

While it has been discussed and dismissed by some....the dismissal has been left wanting by many.

A search of reincarnation and Christianity will lead one down many doors and many discussions...and definitely no consensus. The Fathers speak for Catholics...not for Christians.

Why did they ask Jesus if they baby was born blind for something he had done? How could a baby have done something to deserve being blinded as punishment for sin?? It opens the door for consideration that at the time it was discussed whehter the child was being punished for sins of the father or sins of a previous life....(larger question of course is that G!d is NOT blinding people for sin....yikes...) But the fact that the question is asked is indicative of a time ....Jesus's time....when things were discussed openly without condemnation that occurs today when folks ask questions.

Or when Jesus asked.....Who do they say I am?? Eventually Peter indicacted he was the Christ (enlighentened one) son of the living G!d...but before that....they were naming dead folks...what up with that??

Bigger picture??? Obviously none of us including the Fathers knows during life what happens after life...it is all conjecture, and anyone that tells us they know otherwise....well....I won't go there....

(note: the Fathers MAY know now....since they are dead.... but they aren't discussing....they've been dismissed.)

 

[Thomas]

The Fathers speak for Catholics...not for Christians.

No, that's just your prejudice talking.

The Orthodox are much more founded on the Fathers than the Catholics, for a start. The Reformation churches also rely on the Fathers, everyone did.

I would say the Fathers speak for Christianity, and have done for the 2,000 years. The only exception being in the US where Christianity is repackaged and redefined to suit the 'spiritual marketplace' and consumer demand.

 

[wil]

Not really Thomas....and you know that.

Protestants, Anglicans, we don't elect popes or bishops or cardinals or beatify your saints...this is your religion. Not my prejudice talking....

NOBODY speaks for all of those who follow Jesus in their way...but the individuals themselves...unless they choose to be beholden to some intermediary and bow to someone elses wants, needs and beliefs.

Christianity as far as I know it is "re-packaged" by society and cultures worldwide...just as it was 'repackaged' by the universalists 1700 years ago.

You, nor the Fathers, nor Ratzinger speak for all Christians, you speak on behalf of your beliefs regarding what Catholics believe. If we all believed that we'd be.....err....Catholics!!

 

[Thomas]

Not really Thomas....

Your own lips have said it.
The critique of Catholicism is completely spurious and has no bearing on the discussion.

There was no doctrine of reincarnation within the Church, only the refutation of metempsychosis in pagan philosophies.

Unless you have evidence to the contrary?

Protestants, Anglicans, we don't elect popes ...

Who's talking about popes, Wil?

The point is, Anglicans, Lutherans do follow the tradition of the Fathers ...

... and bow to someone elses wants, needs and beliefs.

I had a look on the Unity site, and it says:

* Beholds all children as whole and perfect expressions of God.
* Empowers children to fulfill their divine potential.
* Teaches children to meditate and pray.
* Invites children to experience a loving God.
* Unity provides a strong spiritual foundation for children's lives.

Looks like indoctrination to me ...

... you speak on behalf of your beliefs regarding what Catholics believe.

No, on this occasion I speak on behalf of the evidence of history, Catholicism doesn't come into it.

You are putting your beliefs in the mouths of others, contrary to what the evidence says.

 

[wil]

You object to teaching spirituality to children now? Indoctrination? Really?

I indicated a couple portions from the bible that indicate early thoughts of old souls occupying new bodies....you chose to ignore discussion.

 

[Thomas]

You object to teaching spirituality to children now? Indoctrination? Really?

I'm trying to widen your viewpoint, wil, that's all.

We teach stuff, it's indoctrination. You teach stuff, it's wonderful.
A secularist would be horrified at what you're teaching children. I am, because of its sheer sentimentality.

According to this argument, if children are born 'whole and perfect expressions of God', then that being so, the child born blind, cleft palate, crippled, or with a congenital illness, or disability ... is born that way because that's the way God wanted the child to be born, and we should not interfere ...

Does that cover still-birth and miscarriage, too?

A whole and perfect expression of God would be ... God.

It's sentimental tosh, Wil, that doesn't stand up to investigation.

But that's by-the-by ...

I indicated a couple portions from the bible that indicate early thoughts of old souls occupying new bodies....you chose to ignore discussion.

Er, no ... you offered an opinion on what you thought it means ... I think the text in no way supports that idea, and it doesn't matter anyway, because the questionis not about what you believe, but whether there was ever a doctrine of reincarnation within Christianity.

Anyway ...

I assume you're talking about John 9:
"And Jesus passing by, saw a man, who was blind from his birth: And his disciples asked him: Rabbi, who hath sinned, this man, or his parents, that he should be born blind?" (v1-2)[/quote]
I can see an argument for karma, but not reincarnation?

Then what does the text say:
"Jesus answered: Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents..."(v3)[/quote]
So Jesus seems to refute the idea of karma and reincarnation!

If you could reference any teaching that speaks of 'old souls occupying new bodies' with reference to this text, I'd be happy to discuss it ... especially as the 'old souls' — his parents — are still alive, and play their party in the discussion!
So as far as I see it, this is a typical example of you imagining what the text is supposed to mean, because it suits you to do so.

And, surely, the whole text is a fabrication anyway, because this is a miracle story, and you don't believe in miracles!

Seems to me you want it all ways, Wil!

 

[wil]

Karma? What did the baby do karmicly to be born blind??

I didn't say Jesus said anthing about reincarnation...I said it was contemplated at the time.

And the response to who do you say I am??

And when have I accused you of indoctrination?

And yes....every child is s perfect child of G!d.... surely you would not believe or tell them otherwise?

I don't want it all ways Thomas...it is provided all ways for me....life is good,

peace and blessings my brother.

 

[Thomas]

Karma? What did the baby do karmicly to be born blind??

That's what the text you cite is all about, Wil. That's the question they asked Jesus. Did you actually read the Scripture you cited?

I didn't say Jesus said anything about reincarnation...I said it was contemplated at the time.

Was it? Where?

 

[wil]

So....how did Karma make the baby blind??

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

I'm confused, shouldn't you both elaborate on your interpretation of the text. Or are you talking past each other on purpose?

 

[wil]

I don't have an interpretation...I have read many...many of which include reincarnation, many of which deny.

As I stated...NOBODY knows what happens after death...a lot of conjecture, a lot of supposition, but in fact we haven't been there (or have we?) I surely don't know, and I have no issues stating it, and I am quite open to all options.

Heaven, and reincarnation are all nice thoughts....but they, I believe are all designed to keep money coming into the coffers. We'll pay our way into good graces....greed and capitolism work here on earth...and G!d knows G!d doesn't have enough money.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

I would like to make one observation. Most people seem to think by monotheisim we mean Christian monotheism. If this is what people mean by monothesim, then, no, Christianity is not compatible with the idea of reincarnation. Christianity teaches the idea of the forgiveness of sins, whereas reincarnation teaches that we will be held responsible for what we do. Christianity and reincarnation are not compatible.