What difference does it make?

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LotusEffect

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Hello,

I have a philosophical question to pose to people of faith, in this case, Muslims in particular.

What difference does it make?

Suppose person (A) and person (B) are identical in their good deeds, abstaining from evil, being pure of thought and sincere...

Person (A) is an agnostic, not subscribing to any religion.

Person (B) is a Muslim, subscribing to Islam, sect being whichever you believe is true.

Case 1: If Person (A) goes to Hell then what is truly important is that they belonged to the true religion of Islam.

Case 2: If Person (A) goes to Heaven then it is irrelevant whether one believes in a religion or not, and in this case we can build an argument against religion on the basis that it only causes separation.

Given the presupposition of Case 2, regardless of your religion you will go to heaven if you are good and sincere. Then how can any religion be true and what is its purpose? Good morals can be taught without needing to believe in a religion.

If one demotes religion to a mere ticket office then one also demotes God to a mere ticket salesman, assuming Case 1 where one must not only follow the moral code and possibly even the tenants of a religion, but subscribe to its very mental belief structure.

Is religion merely a set of mental beliefs which separate us? I believe it to be so.

Given Person (A) and (B) are identical in all ways with the exception of their religious beliefs, is there any reason for religion at all other than to separate the two? Whether socially or eternally, it is a sad thought to process. Religion may be merely an exclusive club that one joins, when one could have been equally successful, polite, and morally guided without said religion. They now have a collection of thoughts in their brain which enable them to enter paradise (ie Allah is One, Muhammad is His messenger...) these thoughts in and of themselves are surely useless without deeds, but how are deeds to be useless without these thoughts?
 
The same views (you seem to infer) are shared by many a Christian, and many of any religion. It is the one Religion behind all religions that matters (or the one First Philosophy which can admit any other).

It is not the speaking or belief that counts... it is realizing what is (the Way or the Creative or the D!ety).
 
radarmark said:
The same views (you seem to infer) are shared by many a Christian, and many of any religion. It is the one Religion behind all religions that matters (or the one First Philosophy which can admit any other).

It is not the speaking or belief that counts... it is realizing what is (the Way or the Creative or the D!ety).
Click to expand...

You would need to define your use of the term "many" in order for me to form an opinion.

Certainly the mainstream believers are quite set on the idea that theirs' is the true religion. And when one delves into the history, it becomes a certainty that early Christians, early Muslims, were fervent regarding the truth and exclusivity of their beliefs, even to the point of death.

If it were not the case, then the cases of early Saints martyred for not recanting their beliefs in the face of death were for naught. What is the need for early Roman-Christian violence and friction if they were all similar or One, surely there would be no need for a new religion (Christianity) to develop if all of the people who would be Christians simply adopted the Roman Pantheon with the idea that all religions are one.

So I am inclined to disagree that all religions are one, it is a romantic thought but not one based in any historical context, and even today the debates are a testimony unto themselves.

Even within the very religions themselves there are separations, ie Catholics and Protestants, Sunni and Shi'a... They have fought and killed each other, some still today, over theological and historical disputes.

Aren't we all just trying to be good people, why complicate things with mental acrobats of the unseen.
 
First, you are correct. THe phenomena is not limited to "others" if one takes the view that all Muslims are the same or all Christians are the same.

Second, I really cannot quantify "Many". All I can do is point out that there are Hindus (think of Gandhiji), Jews (think of Wiesel), Christians (think of Matthew Fox), and Muslims (think of M.G. Ahmad) who do not think this way. Are they a small ar large percentage? I do not know. I do know they are increasing.

Third, I believe that we are all driven by "mental acrobats of the unseen". The differences between various achools of mathematics, physics, and philosophy are driven by ideas. So are political and social differences. How is the concept of G!d different from, say, the concept of personal liberty? Only in the more basic notion of the former.

Good and thoughtful post and rejoinder!
 
Is there a reason you have posted this queston on the Islam board and not confronted Hindus, Bahai, Christians, Rastas, Buddhits etc in the same manner?

I'll not answer here...as I am not Muslim.
 
LotusEffect said:
Hello,

I have a philosophical question to pose to people of faith, in this case, Muslims in particular.

What difference does it make?

Suppose person (A) and person (B) are identical in their good deeds, abstaining from evil, being pure of thought and sincere...

Person (A) is an agnostic, not subscribing to any religion.

Person (B) is a Muslim, subscribing to Islam, sect being whichever you believe is true.

Case 1: If Person (A) goes to Hell then what is truly important is that they belonged to the true religion of Islam.

Case 2: If Person (A) goes to Heaven then it is irrelevant whether one believes in a religion or not, and in this case we can build an argument against religion on the basis that it only causes separation.

Given the presupposition of Case 2, regardless of your religion you will go to heaven if you are good and sincere. Then how can any religion be true and what is its purpose? Good morals can be taught without needing to believe in a religion.

If one demotes religion to a mere ticket office then one also demotes God to a mere ticket salesman, assuming Case 1 where one must not only follow the moral code and possibly even the tenants of a religion, but subscribe to its very mental belief structure.

Is religion merely a set of mental beliefs which separate us? I believe it to be so.

Given Person (A) and (B) are identical in all ways with the exception of their religious beliefs, is there any reason for religion at all other than to separate the two? Whether socially or eternally, it is a sad thought to process. Religion may be merely an exclusive club that one joins, when one could have been equally successful, polite, and morally guided without said religion. They now have a collection of thoughts in their brain which enable them to enter paradise (ie Allah is One, Muhammad is His messenger...) these thoughts in and of themselves are surely useless without deeds, but how are deeds to be useless without these thoughts?
Click to expand...

Anyone here think Mohammed was ONE of the heavenly beings sent to earth or is he just a human being alone?
 
LotusEffect said:
Hello,
I have a philosophical question to pose to people of faith, in this case, Muslims in particular.
Click to expand...
OK. I shall answer as 'a person of faith' rather than a representative of any particular religion.

LotusEffect said:
Case 1: If Person (A) goes to Hell then what is truly important is that they belonged to the true religion of Islam.
Click to expand...
Disagree. What is truly important is that a soul was lost.

LotusEffect said:
Case 2: If Person (A) goes to Heaven then it is irrelevant whether one believes in a religion or not, and in this case we can build an argument against religion on the basis that it only causes separation.
Click to expand...
Oh, absolutely wrong.

This is known in philosophy as 'straw person argument' (an equal-opportunity position). It's a fallacious argument based on a misrepresentation of, in this case, religion. It just reveals your prejudice.

Hopefully, no-one judges you the same way you judge others.
 
Thomas said:
OK. I shall answer as 'a person of faith' rather than a representative of any particular religion.


Disagree. What is truly important is that a soul was lost.


Oh, absolutely wrong.

This is known in philosophy as 'straw person argument' (an equal-opportunity position). It's a fallacious argument based on a misrepresentation of, in this case, religion. It just reveals your prejudice.

Hopefully, no-one judges you the same way you judge others.
Click to expand...
I agree with you on the judging thing.
 
wil said:
I think we are all heavenly beings sent to earth....

This body simply houses our soul... our soul wasn't created here...our body was.
Click to expand...
Heavenly beings have bodies just like human beings have bodies only they consist of more light. The body soul and spirit of a heavenly being, or should I say angelic beings . are one with the soul and spirit except for fallen angels. They are in the same condition as human beings because their bodies are not one with the soul and spirit. The soul oneness with the bodies was lost due to the fall so it is protected. I do however believe human beings are heavenly beings and were in the beginning and that everyones body is really a holy part. So I guess you could say human beings are angelic beings without wings ;) and smaller.
 
wil said:
I think we are all heavenly beings sent to earth....

This body simply houses our soul... our soul wasn't created here...our body was.
Click to expand...

I probably should clarify my question. Does anyone think Mohammed was an angelic being who incarnated into the human egg?
 
wil said:
I think we are all heavenly beings sent to earth....

This body simply houses our soul... our soul wasn't created here...our body was.
Click to expand...
Sorry about the multiple postings but I thought you might find this interesting:According to Jewish mythology, in the Garden of Eden there is a Tree of life or the Tree of Souls[1] that blossoms and produces new souls, which fall into the Guf, the Treasury of Souls. Gabriel reaches into the treasury and takes out the first soul that comes into his hand Guf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Well of Souls - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It explains somewhat what you said.
 
hi lotus; good question!

basically in Islam we have two answers; as to which one of them is correct; we'll just have to find out in the hereafter

1. if someone hears about Islam, then they have a responsibility to look into it and believe once the evidence is overwhelming for them that it is the truth, if they don't hear about Islam, they are not guilty for not believing in God alone

2. even if they have not heard about Islam and the message that God should be worshipped without adjoining any partners to Him, then yet there is enough signs in the universe that there is only one God thus they still have a responsibility to believe, if they don't, then they will face the consequences after death

now regarding these two matters, the way we've been created, such questions will naturally arise of wether there is a Creator, afterlife, heaven and hell etc, thus when the message of Islam reaches one, as it is the truth, it will effect our innate nature that it is or could be the truth, thus morally one becomes responsible now to investigate it good and proper; if they ignore it, then they would be guilty for they knowingly or subconsciously will ignore what could possibly be the truth and if it is, they'd be rejecting or turning a blind eye to their creator and sustainer; now how ungrateful and bad is that?

if they don't hear about Islam, then as the questions of wether there is a God etc naturally occurs to the human mind and all humans can at least see the possibility of God existing etc, then they would be morally responsible for givng this some serious thought and there is indeed enough sign on earth of God being one, e.g, the existence of the heavens and earth that is too complex in design to have come about by chance and it equilibrium a sign that only one God controls it or otherwise there would have been chaos

so really to ignore ones creator; the one that sustains you, the one that gave you life is the greatest of all evils and the thought that, i'm a humanitarian so I don't need to believe in God really goes against our very nature that we are created with thus a believer and disbeliever that does 'good deeds' cannot be the same

it will be similar to, one person doing good deeds and acknowledging his parents and being grateful for his parents bringing him up etc, and another person doing good deeds and denying his parents; denying that his mum fed him, clothed him etc, etc, and never acknowledging them as his parents; such an evil denial will render all of his other 'good deeds' insincere too for sincerity of the heart entails goodness at it's core and to having the greatest of all sins at the basis of all actions renders their roots foul
 
Abdullah said:
hi lotus; good question!

basically in Islam we have two answers; as to which one of them is correct; we'll just have to find out in the hereafter

1. if someone hears about Islam, then they have a responsibility to look into it and believe once the evidence is overwhelming for them that it is the truth, if they don't hear about Islam, they are not guilty for not believing in God alone

2. even if they have not heard about Islam and the message that God should be worshipped without adjoining any partners to Him, then yet there is enough signs in the universe that there is only one God thus they still have a responsibility to believe, if they don't, then they will face the consequences after death

now regarding these two matters, the way we've been created, such questions will naturally arise of wether there is a Creator, afterlife, heaven and hell etc, thus when the message of Islam reaches one, as it is the truth, it will effect our innate nature that it is or could be the truth, thus morally one becomes responsible now to investigate it good and proper; if they ignore it, then they would be guilty for they knowingly or subconsciously will ignore what could possibly be the truth and if it is, they'd be rejecting or turning a blind eye to their creator and sustainer; now how ungrateful and bad is that?

if they don't hear about Islam, then as the questions of wether there is a God etc naturally occurs to the human mind and all humans can at least see the possibility of God existing etc, then they would be morally responsible for givng this some serious thought and there is indeed enough sign on earth of God being one, e.g, the existence of the heavens and earth that is too complex in design to have come about by chance and it equilibrium a sign that only one God controls it or otherwise there would have been chaos

so really to ignore ones creator; the one that sustains you, the one that gave you life is the greatest of all evils and the thought that, i'm a humanitarian so I don't need to believe in God really goes against our very nature that we are created with thus a believer and disbeliever that does 'good deeds' cannot be the same

it will be similar to, one person doing good deeds and acknowledging his parents and being grateful for his parents bringing him up etc, and another person doing good deeds and denying his parents; denying that his mum fed him, clothed him etc, etc, and never acknowledging them as his parents; such an evil denial will render all of his other 'good deeds' insincere too for sincerity of the heart entails goodness at it's core and to having the greatest of all sins at the basis of all actions renders their roots foul
Click to expand...
Interesting.
 
Abdullah said:
hi lotus; good question!

basically in Islam we have two answers; as to which one of them is correct; we'll just have to find out in the hereafter

1. if someone hears about Islam, then they have a responsibility to look into it and believe once the evidence is overwhelming for them that it is the truth, if they don't hear about Islam, they are not guilty for not believing in God alone

2. even if they have not heard about Islam and the message that God should be worshipped without adjoining any partners to Him, then yet there is enough signs in the universe that there is only one God thus they still have a responsibility to believe, if they don't, then they will face the consequences after death

now regarding these two matters, the way we've been created, such questions will naturally arise of wether there is a Creator, afterlife, heaven and hell etc, thus when the message of Islam reaches one, as it is the truth, it will effect our innate nature that it is or could be the truth, thus morally one becomes responsible now to investigate it good and proper; if they ignore it, then they would be guilty for they knowingly or subconsciously will ignore what could possibly be the truth and if it is, they'd be rejecting or turning a blind eye to their creator and sustainer; now how ungrateful and bad is that?

if they don't hear about Islam, then as the questions of wether there is a God etc naturally occurs to the human mind and all humans can at least see the possibility of God existing etc, then they would be morally responsible for givng this some serious thought and there is indeed enough sign on earth of God being one, e.g, the existence of the heavens and earth that is too complex in design to have come about by chance and it equilibrium a sign that only one God controls it or otherwise there would have been chaos

so really to ignore ones creator; the one that sustains you, the one that gave you life is the greatest of all evils and the thought that, i'm a humanitarian so I don't need to believe in God really goes against our very nature that we are created with thus a believer and disbeliever that does 'good deeds' cannot be the same

it will be similar to, one person doing good deeds and acknowledging his parents and being grateful for his parents bringing him up etc, and another person doing good deeds and denying his parents; denying that his mum fed him, clothed him etc, etc, and never acknowledging them as his parents; such an evil denial will render all of his other 'good deeds' insincere too for sincerity of the heart entails goodness at it's core and to having the greatest of all sins at the basis of all actions renders their roots foul
Click to expand...

Sorry, I just don't see God or Allah sending someone with a good heart to hell because of their beliefs. That being said, I want to share a few quotes that relate to this thread.

"Be tolerant to be tolerated." Prophet Muhammad (s) as narrated in Ahmad B. Hanbal, Musnad 1/248.
 
Thepasserby said:
Sorry, I just don't see God or Allah sending someone with a good heart to hell because of their beliefs. That being said, I want to share a few quotes that relate to this thread.

"Be tolerant to be tolerated." Prophet Muhammad (s) as narrated in Ahmad B. Hanbal, Musnad 1/248.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I just don't see God or Allah sending someone with a good heart to hell because of their beliefs. That being said, I want to share a few quotes that relate to this thread.

"Be tolerant to be tolerated." Prophet Muhammad (s) as narrated in Ahmad B. Hanbal, Musnad 1/248.
"...and nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those who say, 'We are Christians,' because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant" -Quran (5:82).

"Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from error; whoever rejects evil and believes in God has grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold that never breaks. And God hears and knows all things." - (The Qur’an, Al-Baqarah, 2: 256)

"God made Truth with many doors to welcome every believer who knocks on them." - Kahlil Gibran
 
Black magic of Demons.
Enslavement of the mind to the cult idol.

Such an unbalanced choice is manipulation; why else would people chose the demon?

The good god would not spout such lies and wield such evil threats.
Great then is hu'Baal.
Now as to your building of your shrine to Daltor, who is good and wise and with no threats...where are you going to place it?
In the garden or inside?

I await your...answers?
 
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