Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?

This three-day thing seems a much bigger deal for you, than for anyone else.
@rstrats has been seeking an answer to this here, and many other forums, for years. Sort of a modern era Diogenes. He started this thread over 11 years ago.

On another forum I provided him with some information from Jewish sources, however they were not contemporaneous with to the writing of the gospel accounts so he considered them to be without value for him.
 
I thought we had a discussion about this topic on another thread when I first joined. But I don't remember which thread. This argument feels so familiar yet I don't see my name on any of this.
 
On another forum I provided him with some information from Jewish sources, however they were not contemporaneous with to the writing of the gospel accounts so he considered them to be without value for him.
Do you by any chance remember the forum where you provided examples which showed that it was common to say that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could be?
 
Because it's been shown that the Crucifixion actually took place earlier in the week...
Sorry, I thought you were referring to the issue of this topic.
This three-day thing seems a much bigger deal for you, than for anyone else.
No big deal at all - I just seem to be more curious than anyone else with regard to the topic's issue.
 
Do you know that they say that it was common to say that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could be?
NO.
You can try and see if Dan McClellan might know. He's on YouTube and I think TikTok.
He does live streams sometimes on YouTube and answers questions.
He also makes his own publications available, links to that appear in the descriptions on his videos.
 
I don't know. I guess you'll have to ask the others why they are less curious.
I'm not curious and I don't need any reason why not, and I don't have any reason TO be either..

I almost never think in tremendous detail about the timeline of the crucifixion.

I don't have a clue why you are as curious as you are about this in particular detail.

It seems your questions have been answered, by @Thomas here, and @RabbiO some years back.
You aren't satisfied with the answers or it appears you are not.
Maybe your question is something other than it appears to be and is not directly addressed by the straightforward answers.

My curiosity lies in other matters discussed elsewhere on the forum.
 
I read through the entire thread. So what is the hangup here? Are you wondering if there is any way Jewish tradition and/or idioms could explain the 3 days and 3 nights discrepancy? I know that I can't think of any. Days, especially holy days, began and ended during sunsets. The New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew anyway. So it's rather doubtful that any Hebrew idioms would be involved.

I hope we can help you figure this out. It has been over 10 years that you have been looking for answers.
 
I read through the entire thread. So what is the hangup here? Are you wondering if there is any way Jewish tradition and/or idioms could explain the 3 days and 3 nights discrepancy?
No, at least not for the purpose of this topic.
 
I need to add that I initially asked this question a number of years ago. In retrospect, I may have been having a senior moment at the time by thinking that there were some 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection believers who tried to explain the missing night time of Matthew 12:40 by saying that it was employing common Jewish figure of speech with regard to the counting of daytimes and night times. They may actually have been saying that it was only a onetime usage of a figure of speech/colloquialism. But then I would probably ask, how they know that it is a figure of speech in the first place? What is there in scripture which makes it absolutely impossible for it to be anything other than that?

Nevertheless, the idea has piqued my interest, and I would simply like to see if anyone does try to explain the lack of a 3rd night time by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech or colloquialism of the period.
 
I have collected some scenarios in my comment to the Gospel accounts, I may share with you:

The first day was the 14th Nisan, the ערב פֶּסַח (“erev pessach”, eve of Passover) or ערב פֶּסַח (“leil ha-Seder”). Some of the actions described in the following are linked to the traditions of this evening, some were particular to the situation, because Jesus was aware that this would be the last supper with his disciples.

Some confusion arises from a discrepancy between the narratives of Mark and John, since John later says that the Sanhedrim would not enter Pilate's palace lest they be defiled, but would eat the Passover (Jn 18:28), and Pilate sends the titulus (the sign on the cross of Jesus) proclaiming Jesus as King on the "day of preparation of the Passover" (Jn 19:14, see Jn 19:1-15). Several explanations have been proposed:

  1. Some scholars, sticking to the traditional Christian interpretation based on Mark's account, suggest that the meal took place on the regular Seder evening, supposing that the 14th of Nisan was a Thursday (by Jewish convention the evening is already part of the next day, the 15th of Nisan). The expression “day of preparation” in John 19:14 is also used for ordinary Fridays, as it is the day of preparation for the Sabbath (Saturday). Then Jesus would have been arrested on the night of the 15th of Nisan, taken to Annas, before the Sanhedrin, handed over to Pilate, to Herod, back to Pilate, and crucified late that same morning. Although this is still the official Christian story, it is extremely unlikely. This 15th of Nisan is the holiest day of the Passover; neither the Sanhedrin nor the High Priest would be busy putting anyone to death on that day, and it is logistically impossible for all this to have happened within five hours. It also contradicts Matthew 12:40 (see Mt 12:38-42): “For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son-of-Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth”.
  2. Some scholars follow John rather than Mark and suggest that this took place the day before the 14th of Nisan, and Jesus was crucified on the 14th of Nisan, the day of preparation. This would conform John's account, and is a bit less unlikely that the sanhedrin would have someone sentenced on that day, and possibly also the saying that Jesus was unseen three days and three nights, if this was a Thursday evening. It goes along with Mark's account, which says, “And the chief priests and the teachers of the law sought how they might secretly arrest and kill him; for they said, ‘Not during the feast, lest there be an uproar among the people’.” but it still doesn’t solve the problem that five hours are not enough for all that has been told.
  3. It is known that the Qumran sect (a Jewish sect that lived at the time of Jesus and had hidden a large library at Qumran near the Dead Sea, fragments of which were found in the 20th century) followed a timetable slightly different from the rabbinic tradition (and probably from other Jews of their time) in that they always began Passover with the Seder on a Tuesday. Although there does not seem to be any particular connection between Jesus and this sect, some scholars suggest that Jesus may have followed this timetable, and that the evening described here was on a Tuesday. He would have been arrested in the night preceding a Wednesday. The trials of the Sanhedrin, the handing over to Pilate, to Herod and back to Pilate would have taken place on that Wednesday. Jesus would have been staked on Thursday 14th Nisan, the day of preparation for the Passover, before the Seder evening. Three nights and three days would have passed before his resurrection on Sunday 17th Nisan. It is also in accordance with John 18:28, “that they would eat the Passover”. The drawback of this scenario is that it implies that Jesus and his disciples followed a particular deviation from mainstream Judaism, but John then refers to the common dating of the Passover.
  4. We follow the timeline above, following only John and discarding Mark's tradition that the Last Supper was the Seder.
  5. Some scholars suggest that the Seder meal took place on the day of Preparation, the 14th of Nisan, and Jesus was arrested by the Roman mercenaries on the night of the 15th of Nisan, but the following events took place over several days. Jesus would have been impaled on the 6th day of Passover, the 20th of Nisan, the day of preparation for the last day of Passover, which is again an extraordinary Shabbat. He could have been crucified on a Thursday, followed by two Shabbat days, and resurrected on Sunday 23rd Nisan. This would be a realistic timeline, consistent with the “three days and three nights” and Mark's narrative; Jn 18:28 “that they would eat the Passover” would fit as well, it solely contradicts the later association of Jesus with the Passover lamb.


We cannot know which of these scenarios is really correct; 1 and 2 are highly unrealistic. The last scenario is not obvious, but it would be the most consistent with all the stories, but 3 and 4 are at least possible. It may even have been different from all five. In the end, it doesn't really matter; it won't change our lives.
 
I have collected some scenarios in my comment to the Gospel accounts, I may share with you...
I'm afraid your comments don't provide any examples which show that it was common to say that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could be. Maybe you could start a new topic to discuss your findings.
 
Last edited:
I'm afraid your comments don't provide any examples which show that it was common to say that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could be. Maybe you could start a new topic to discuss your findings.
It doesn't anwer the explicit question of the original post, but the reason why this question was raised.

The answer to the original question would be that no, a day is a day and a night is a night, and it is common to count them separately

Dt 10:10 And I have stood in the mountain, as the former days, [for] forty days and forty nights, and YHWH also listens to me at that time
Mt 4:2 ... After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry.
Mt 12:40 for as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.

We find the nights mentioned and the days counted in
Lev 8:35 ... and you abide at the opening of the Tent of Meeting by day and by night [for] seven days
This rite is not mentioned later, it cannot be used as a proof or counter-proof to the thesis that it would have been only 4 days and 3 nights, but hardly anybody would understand it like that.

The creation myth of the Genesis mentions the evening before the morning, but the counting of the days is written after the morning:
Gen 1:5 ... and God calls the light “Day,” and the darkness He has called “Night”; and there is an evening, and there is a morning—first day.
Gen 1:8 ... And God calls the expanse “Heavens”; and there is an evening, and there is a morning—second day.
...

The date (ritually relevant for holydays and shabbat) starts at sunset

Ex 12:18: In the first month you are to eat bread made without yeast, from the evening of the fourteenth day until the evening of the twenty-first day.

In the Psalms, we usually find both, the day mentioned before the night and the evening mentioned first:
Psalm 55:10 Day and night they prowl about on its walls; malice and abuse are within it. Its walls are patrolled day and night against invaders, but the real danger is wickedness within
Psalm 19:2 Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they reveal knowledge.
I never found a day and a night counted as two days, and would be illogical.
Psalm 77:16 The day is yours, and yours also the night; you established the sun and moon. Both day and night belong to you; you made the starlight and the sun.
Psalm 55:17 Evening, and morning, and noon, "" I meditate, and make a noise, and He hears my voice,

The first notion of a 24 hour day (with the night counted as a part of the day), and one of the rare Jewish documents that counts the evening as part of the preceding day is in the Book of Jubilees (late 2nd Temple period):
Jub 49:19 When the house of God is built in the land of their inheritance, they shall go there and sacrifice the Passover lamb in the evening, when the sun goes down, in the third part of the day.

All prescriptions for a day last at least from the morning until the evening, but the third day always begins in the morning.

Ex 19:10-11 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow. They must wash their clothes and be prepared by the third day, for on the third day the LORD will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people.

For two days and the third day for resurrection, compare
Hosea 6:1-2 “Come, and we turn back to YHWH, "For He has torn, and He heals us, " He strikes, and He binds us up. He revives us after two days, " In the third day He raises us up, " And we live before Him.

But I haven't seen any indication that two nights become three because of any kind of counting.
 
Nevertheless, the idea has piqued my interest, and I would simply like to see if anyone does try to explain the lack of a 3rd night time by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech or colloquialism of the period.
More likely that the crucifixion took place earlier in the week, and thus the three days doesn't involve reliance on idiomatic language – in ignorance of the Hebrew calendar, one could argue, the assumption was that He was ... in which case whether there is in fact idiomatic usage becomes irrelevant.
 
More likely that the crucifixion took place earlier in the week, and thus the three days doesn't involve reliance on idiomatic language – in ignorance of the Hebrew calendar, one could argue, the assumption was that He was ... in which case whether there is in fact idiomatic usage becomes irrelevant.
And those would be issues for a different topic.
 
I need to add that I initially asked this question a number of years ago. In retrospect, I may have been having a senior moment at the time by thinking that there were some 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection believers who tried to explain the missing night time of Matthew 12:40 by saying that it was employing common Jewish figure of speech with regard to the counting of daytimes and night times. They may actually have been saying that it was only a onetime usage of a figure of speech/colloquialism. But then I would probably ask, how they know that it is a figure of speech in the first place? What is there in scripture which makes it absolutely impossible for it to be anything other than that?

Nevertheless, the idea has piqued my interest, and I would simply like to see if anyone does try to explain the lack of a 3rd night time by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech or colloquialism of the period.
I know of none. But I am no expert. I used to be a foreign language instructor and have had a fascination with the odd idioms and figures of speech different cultures use.

I have never heard of a figure of speech that would account for the "counting of daytimes and night times". No figure of speech explain the lack of a 3rd evening. Don't forget that we're also missing a 3rd day. Mary and Mary came to the tomb before sunrise on Sunday. Jesus was already long gone. There is no 3rd day either. 2 days. 2 nights.

The way that we often spot figures of speech is by comparing other writings. In one of my language classes I had to translate Columbus's journal writings to English. It was horrible. Other than the fact his grammar sucked and it was written in the late 1400's, he used a lot of figures of speech. I had to research other writings from his time period in order to understand what he was trying to say.
 
Don't forget that we're also missing a 3rd day. Mary and Mary came to the tomb before sunrise on Sunday. Jesus was already long gone. There is no 3rd day either. 2 days. 2 nights.
Good point if we go by John. However, the sun had risen if we go by Mark.
 
Back
Top