Who wrote the gospels?

Godmachine

Active Member
Messages
34
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Wisconsin
I think it was this question that ultimately led me to renounce the faith of my family - Catholicism - as I grew up. I've always loved to read and in my younger days I suppose had a naive tendency to believe things I read that I probably should have questioned. Ironically it was my mother, a staunch Catholic, who told me I should always "consider the source" of what I read. Those were wise words but I don't think she ever expected me to apply that advice to the gospels. I mean after all, they were the gospels and everybody knows the gospels are the absolute (gospel) truth. Right?

So who were these guys, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John? Something ought to be known about them. So I started to search. And I searched and I searched. I read the works of supposed experts and scholars, both believers and nonbelievers. I asked priests and deacons and other religious authorities. I scoured the internet for more information. As it turns out, there is very little information to be found about the gospel writers. Nobody really knows who they were. Nobody even knows if the names we attribute to them were their real names (probably not). The gospels are the works of anonymous, unknown authors. To me this was astonishing. I began to ask, if we don't know who these people were, how are we to consider the source? And if we cannot consider the source, what reason is there to believe?

I still find this to be a fascinating subject. I've never stopped searching for answers. So I will put this question to you folks as one of my first posts on this forum. Perhaps I will find an answer here that I have not already found. Who wrote the gospels?
 
You and Thomas are going to love each other. Let the battle begin!

I'm interested in some background to ad some flavour to your words. What is your relationship with the church now? Do your resent it? How has the effected your outlook on religion as a whole? Are you only looking for hard facts? Could the text stand on it's contents alone no matter who wrote it?
 
Allow me to call your question and raise you a question. How sacred can the Gospels be if a Church council decided which gospels should be included in the Bible, and which should be tossed into the trash heap of history? Was this not a decision by men?
 
Ahem ... Hi, Godmachine (bit of a contradiction, that, I would have thought — or rather, I hope He's not!). Despite the introduction of my good friend ACOT, I'm not here to handbag you! (Especially not a handbag concealing a large and weighty copy of the Bible!)

I think it was this question that ultimately led me to renounce the faith of my family - Catholicism - as I grew up.
Well that's a pity, but I would point out that authorship of the Gospels is not an article of faith — you don't have to believe in the 'Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, bless the bed that I lie on'. Catlicks are obliged to assert the Gospels were written under Divine inspiration, but that's all we have to 'fess up to! Dei Verbum, Vatican II's constitutional document on Divine Revelation, never mentions the authors my name, for this very reason!

(As an aside when I did my degree in theology, and we had many a delightful wrangle over this question, let me tell, you, my course director, something of an expert in the field, suggested that Holy Mother Church was in dire need of a document discussing the distinctions between revelation and inspiration.) I would have thought the miracles and declarations of divinity a lot more contentious, whoever wrote the text!

Ironically it was my mother, a staunch Catholic, who told me I should always "consider the source" of what I read.
Good for her ... sound Catholic teaching.

I mean after all, they were the gospels and everybody knows the gospels are the absolute (gospel) truth. Right?
Not if you're Catholic, the view is more nuanced than that.

Something ought to be known about them.
Why? They weren't writing for personal fame or glory, and they were writing in an age when the text was more important than the author. They just weren't famous enough in their own day to be the subject of useful biography. Mark's Gospel, for example, scores very poorly if examined from a purely literary perspective. We ought to know something about Socrates, Plato and Aristotle, perhaps the most famous of the founders of philosophy, but we know hardly anything with certainty, a lot less than we know about the authors of the Gospels!

I read the works of supposed experts and scholars, both believers and nonbelievers.
But I think I can say that they, believer and nonbeliever alike, would not place the question of authorship as a significant reason for believing or not believing in the Christian Faith. I think both camps find the Catholic orthodox response sound, logical, rational and well-argued. In the end it boils down to were they inspired by the Holy Spirit, or were they deluded? Social status is no guarantee of critical insight.

As it turns out, there is very little information to be found about the gospel writers.
But I think there's shedloads more than what we know about the authors of the great sacra doctrina of the world. The Buddhist scriptures were not put to paper until 400 years after the Buddha had shuffled off his mortal coil, but that doesn't hinder Buddhists half as much as it troubles us, but that's largely down to mindset and philosophical process.

Nobody even knows if the names we attribute to them were their real names (probably not).
Well that depends ...
Matthew's Gospel is attributed to 'Matthew' by the Tradition, there is no author's signature. All we know is that the author of Matthew was an educated and erudite Jew, most probably a rabbi from his knowledge of Scripture, who lived in Syria and was writing to the Christian community there (primarily Jewish converts) to assert that the Lord was, indeed, the fulfillment of the divine promises made to israel. This at a time when relations between Christian and Jew was foundering in mutual acrimony. Definitely not an eye-witness, he uses Mark for his chronology, which wouldn't make sense if he was. Unless he had a terrible memory, which would then throw the whole thing into doubt ...

All we know of Mark is that he was the least educated and erudite of the four — his Greek is pretty poor and probably not his native tongue. His audience was Greek-speaking Gentile converts — he explains Jewish traditions for the benefit of the uninitiated, and also defines the Aramaic terms he uses. Irenaeus (c200AD) places him in Rome, his gospel largely centered on Peter's testimony. Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp (they both came from Smyrna in Asia Minor), who was a disciple of John. Papias, another early source, almost contemporary with Irenaeus, and who was a Bishop of Hierapolis in Turkey, also asserts Mark was written in Rome, founded on Peter's testimony, and states that he was told so by John the Elder, who has been identified as either John the Evangelist, or a John who was the Evangelist's disciple and who authored the Johannine epistles. (And who might well have had a hand, but was not the source, of John's gospel.)

With Luke we're on (slightly) firmer ground. A native of Antioch in Syria (a Hellenist city), Colossians refers to him as a doctor (physician) and a companion of Paul. Highly educated, very erudite, he constructed his Gospel on the 'journey' motif which was a widely-used device in Greek literature (half of Luke's Gospel takes place on the way to Jerusalem). In his own words he claims to have put his gospel together from extensive investigation of the sources available to him, one of which, according to the Tradition, was the Blessed Virgin herself. He wrote the Gospel and Acts, and archaeology continues to turn up evidence to confirm that Luke was accurate in many instances where, for a long time, it was assumed he was in error or guilty of literary fabrication.

As an aside, secular historians agree that Luke's observations on the Roman occupation of Jerusalem (viz. the huge escort that spirited Paul out of Jerusalem in the dead of night) is an unrivalled source of 'the man in the street' testimony. All other histories of Rome were written by members of the upper echelons of Roman society. Luke paints a telling picture of just how volatile relations were between the Romans and the Jews and the Christians.

John ... ah, John. The only one who claims to be an eye-witness, and the one whom everyone wants to knock off his perch! Simply put, line up all your contenders, and the John who was the close companion of Christ comes out way in front in terms of credibility. Again, archaeology has since proven that John, who's Gospel is littered with those little observations that speak of first-hand knowledge, knew the Jerusalm that Our Lord walked. Notably, it was always contended that John was making it all up when he spoke about the healing pool at Siloe (John 9:7), because there isn't one ... and then they found it.

Another aside — we commonly assume, and our naughty teachers who should know better are happy to let us continue to do so — that the disciples were 'simple fishermen'. Well, not quite, or at least, not all of them. It is pretty definite that Peter and John were the sons of a well-to-do 'fisherman' who probably owned a fleet of boats and who was something in the Jewish hierarchy. John, as is evident from his testimony, was well-known in higher circles of Jewish society and moved easily in those circles, again, really well educated.

Yet another aside — it was long held that John's Gospel was steeped in Greek and even Gnostic thought ... now scholarship throws light on the fact that Judaism of the day was not simply a case of Pharisee, Sadducee or Essene. Jewish mystical contemplation was quite sophisticated and John's Gospel is riddled with Jewish, not Greek and definitely not Gnostic, ideas and imagery. The term Logos, for example, can be seen as the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew Memra...

After the Gospels, one of the most incisive texts (for theologians) in the canon is the Letter to the Hebrews, and while this was traditionally attributed to Paul, it was well known by the 2nd century (at the very latest) that he didn't write it! Yet, even as a kid, I can remember the lector saying "a reading from the letter of St Paul to the Hebrews".

Aside again: One of my co-students argues vehemently that Paul was the author and that writing in a different style was just a sign of divine inspiration. He and I were on the same page with regard to almost everything else, but I could never understand why he defended this impossible position. But then he was a convert to Catholicism, and any cradle-born knows what a royal pain in the *** a convert can be! Lord knows, just look at what the converts of the Early Church got up to! (Running street battles with the Jews in Rome, for example.)

So where do I stand?

I like to think that if the author of Matthew chose that name it was because Matthew the disciple was the least among the Jews (he was a tax-collector, the last thing any self-respecting Jewish momma wants her kid to grow up to be). In short, a traitor to his kind. But he's a very canny writer, and a very Jewish one, crafting his text in a chiastic 'ring-structure' that's both sophisticated and revealing. It's possible that this Matthew utilised the now lost 'Gospel to the Hebrews' perhaps written by the real Matthew, a collection of sayings of Our Lord.

Mark? You just want to put a hand on Mark's shoulder, look him in the eye and say, "Whoa! Take a breath, calm down, and start again, from the beginning, but slowly this time!" (Nor do I buy the 'low Christology' argument of Mark being early v John being later and an evolved 'high Christology'.)

Luke, the Gospel of Social Justice, and the Gospel of the Holy Spirit (as Acts is sometimes called), speaks for himself. The evidence is there, increasingly so, he doesn't need me to defend him, he's way better at this stuff than me.

John? He's the bosom companion, by a clear mile. He saw it with his own eyes, and told it how it was. He's luminous.
 
OK Gordian Knot, allow me to call your question and raise you a question.

How sacred can the Gospels be if a Church council decided which gospels should be included in the Bible, and which should be tossed into the trash heap of history? Was this not a decision by men?
How sacred would you consider the book to be if the councils accepted everyone who walked through the door with a gospel under his arm? (There's a lot of people reckon Paul should be thrown out!)

Remember there were teachings, doctrines and dogmas before there were gospels, so it's not as if they've got no benchmark of authenticity.

If it was your job, how would you decide?
 
Well done Thomes, very interesting read. I'm looking forward to what tone this discussion will (de)evolve into.
 
Mathew Mark Luke and John, hold the horse till I get on!

Yee haw!!

Short answer...we don't know who wrote them.

Slightly longer answer....we think we know who they were written FOR!

Each was written to correct the mistakes of the previous, narrow down a few points, add a few more, or provide a different viewpoint...

Each is glorious in its own right and in combination they are wonderful books, truly while not 'the gospel' they are 'good news' to those that read them, be it salvation, or a deeper understanding of self. (is that different??)

GodMachine my brother you are a victim of EXACTLY what I was speaking of in another thread. You had a tradition, a truth, a story pounded into you, and you believed it....your belief hinged on these truths...and as they unraveled so did your faith...

Whereas...had you known the truth about the books, how they were cannonized, who we think wrote themand why, you would be still enamoured in your faith and reaping the benefits that it offers.

I hope you find solace in whatever you study and encourage you to keep exploring....if it is to return to Catholicism....I know none better than Thomas as a guide.
 
You and Thomas are going to love each other. Let the battle begin!

I'm interested in some background to ad some flavour to your words. What is your relationship with the church now? Do your resent it? How has the effected your outlook on religion as a whole? Are you only looking for hard facts? Could the text stand on it's contents alone no matter who wrote it?

Most of the people I know and love are Catholic. I do not resent the church. In fact I try to keep up on what is happening in the church. But I do it today from the perspective of an outsider. As far as my outlook on religion, I call myself an agnostic but with regard to the beliefs of the world's religions, I am an atheist. I do not believe in any of the gods of the world's religions. That being said, I do not rule out the possibility of some kind of divine celestial being(s) far beyond our human understanding. I don't see religion as good or evil. It is what it is. I am not necessarily looking for hard facts but rather to see things from different perspectives, perhaps some new information I was not aware of or to see something I already know in a different light. I kinda live for those "AHA!!!" moments.
 
Thank you Thomas for your insights. You haven't really said anything that is new to me but I do appreciate your unique point of view.
 
An atheist in relation to world religions.... I call myself a nontheistic christian panentheist...

Nontheistic because I don't believe in a passive agressive G!d tossing bumper crops and plagues on whims, ordering genocide and blessing centarians with babies...Christian because I follow the teachings of Christ, and panentheist because I see the divine in all, including you...and you...and you.

I'm currently on quite the high, got up at 2:30 this morning to get on the job early and it is now 10 pm without a nap, just returned from our world day of prayer interfaith service listening to the prayers, chants, and talks by Jewish, Buddhist, Sikh, Hindu, Christian, Bahai, Native American, Islamic traditions and more... Song, words, intermingled beauty, connection, symbiosis, it was glorious listening to them all say they have the corner on truth (a little tongue n cheek there but both unity and my way were conveyed)

It is how many of them wrote in preparation, to be a conversion rather than a conversation, as it proceeded some changed on the fly and grasped the concept that it was about finding friendship amongst our differences...and it was a thing of beauty...(or it may be my lack of sleep)
 
Well done Thomes, very interesting read. I'm looking forward to what tone this discussion will (de)evolve into.

Well if you are looking for a knock down drag out from me, I must disappoint. Not my style.

Thomas, your comments are relevant as far as they go. They do rather miss the point though. It is not my job to chose which gospels should be included. I'm a mere mortal, as where the Church fathers. Who are mortals to decide what is and what is not the word of God? Is that not being just a tad presumptuous?

The nut I'm trying to crack here is this - is the Bible the word of God or the words of men. Choosing which voices (gospels) will speak for God is bad form at the very least.

Additionally the decisions were hardly arbitrary. No dart board was harmed in the making of those choices that momentous day. Rather it was, to my understanding, a choice by the Church leaders to include only the gospels that showed JC as a God; and to drop any that purported him to be man.

This is rather a bit biased don't you think? And with a particularly narrow (and self serving) agenda in mind?

If it had been an honest attempt on their part to try and agree on the gospels that most accurately spoke to what God wanted, I could see your point. Their decisions show their motives were not so altruistic.

I meet your call, and here are my cards! (That isn't probably the correct phraseology, but I'm not really that much of a card player. But you get my drift, eh?)
 
Well this was all very civil, and evolving nicely. We'll just have to wait until OneTrueGod finds this little corner of peace.

Additionally the decisions were hardly arbitrary. No dart board was harmed in the making of those choices that momentous day. Rather it was, to my understanding, a choice by the Church leaders to include only the gospels that showed JC as a God; and to drop any that purported him to be man.

If it had been an honest attempt on their part to try and agree on the gospels that most accurately spoke to what God wanted, I could see your point.

These are mutually exclusive then?
 
Short answer...we don't know who wrote them.
Wil, you rant about 'lies' and 'deceptions', and then you foist what looks suspiciously like one of your own.

To dismiss the question so glibly, without qualification, does a great injustice, to Scripture, to Tradition, to scholarship, to the intellect and the soul, to whomsoever you might say this to, and to yourself.

Short answer ... it's a sideshow. The point of the Gospels is to introduce us to Christ, not the author, and we know Him intimately, His very soul is laid bare on the page. He hangs on the Cross in pain, abandonment and misery ... He is risen, not in bitterness and acrimony, but in love and paternal affection for all ... He loves us, even those we who daily condemned Him because, through our own fault, we fall short of what He demands of us, and daily we sit at the foot of the Cross, and bartered for His clothes while He bleeds to death above us ... for their sakes.

If you love Him, find a place in your heart to love us, for his sake, if not for your own personal wellbeing.

Do yourself a favour. Read Fernseeds and Elephants, a paper delivered by C.S. Lewis. I think you'll find it enlightening. He's certainly mote eloquent than I.

GodMachine my brother you are a victim of EXACTLY what I was speaking of in another thread. You had a tradition, a truth, a story pounded into you, and you believed it....your belief hinged on these truths...and as they unraveled so did your faith...
Then you built your faith on the wrong things.

The question of faith boils down to faith in the Resurrection. If not then your faith was in vain (not my words, see 1 Corinthians 15:14,17).
 
These are mutually exclusive then?

I certainly think so. Men making decisions that serve their own interests; paring out anything that went against their interests. It was an arbitrary decision to go one way rather than another.

Had the council had any interest in being balanced they would have included gospels from both points of view. That they chose only what would empower themselves does make the two options mutually exclusive.
 
It is not my job to chose which gospels should be included.
No, but someone had to.

I'm a mere mortal, as where the Church fathers. Who are mortals to decide what is and what is not the word of God? Is that not being just a tad presumptuous?
Well the question really is what did God say?

The orthodox tradition, prior to the written gospels, accepted those teachings which they held to be the authentic transmission of the words and works, the life of Christ, which turns on the Passion and Resurrection, which they saw as Our Lord's self sacrifice for the expiation of sin. (They how of it is still an open question. The favoured approach is that of Irenaeus who's interpretation, based on Paul, encompasses all the arguments.)

So when written testimonies started turning up, the only way they could proceed in all honest was by looking to see what documents echoed the oral tradition, and what documents departed, in some cases quite radically, from it. We have evidence that even John's Gospel was questioned (being too much 'meat' for their pastoral concerns). There are books now considered worthy of the canon that never made it, and there are books in the canon that some of the Fathers thought did not belong, Revelations, for example.

But in the end they decide according to the thesis as they hold it. Luther thought Timothy should be excluded, because it refuted his theology.

Basically the fathers chose the books that lined up with the oral tradition as they received it.

Take the Gospel of Judas, which was very early. It claims that Judas was justified because he was acting under Our Lord's instruction. When did he write this gospel then? After the crucifixion, obviously, and therefore just before he killed himself, as the canon upholds? Or perhaps he didn't kill himself. If he did, does his suicide imply a complete loss of faith, or the first authentic, and validated, martyrdom?

Either way, it asserts a theology that only the elect are saved, and that the most part of humanity, tied to the body and the senses, are is bound for perdition. Of the twelve, only he was saved. The rest of the eleven are lost.

Christ recruits twelve, but only manages to save one. A tough message for the rest of us.

Judas also said that Our Lord took him aside and told him that he alone was worthy of the true teaching. A problem, because the Gospel of Thomas (which is also early if I accept it's supporters without anywhere near the critical dissection the inflict upon the canon, claiming to know the truth of it, at 2,000 years remove, by the way), says exactly the same thing. Including only Thomas 'got it', which now looks like He set Judas up to take a fall, and Judas' gospel, if we accept Thomas, is the testimony of a poor, deluded fool.

Are we to suppose that Our Lord was in the habit of telling His disciples, privately and individually, that he, Thomas, Judas, Peter, John ... that he alone understood, and the rest were a bunch of no-hopers? That's a very divisive strategy ... and not one of love.

Then there are gospels saying Christ died but never rose, that Christ was only injured and recovered, that it was only His angelic form that hung upon the cross (He never was a man of flesh and blood), that Judas died in his place ... which ones do you pick?

So what could they do but go with the ones in which they 'recognised' the Christ of their faith.

If I said God decided and moved mere mortals to act as he wills, will that satisfy you? I don't think so (it wouldn't me, that's a self-serving answer).

Both Judas and Thomas speak the language of a heterodox mystical dualist speculation that would be heresy to a Hellenist, let alone a Jew. (A Hellenist would reject Judas for the crucifixion, and Thomas for saying the two must become one.) Is this not the first instance of what orthodoxy has been accused of for centuries — in our case of interpreting a Hebrew message according to Hellenist presupposition?

If Christ died, was it for the Divine love of all men, as that oral tradition which became canon declares, or for a handful, as the other texts assert?

So the Fathers must trust in their faith and decide what they will tell the world. That salvation, or realisation, or enlightenment, is for all, not just for the pre-elect few.

Authenticity proceeds from its axioms.

And so do we, even today.

The difference today is we want to assert the priority of self determination — the right to believe what I choose to believe. The right to self-declared divinity. But it's just not logical, rational or reasonable. God cannot not know Himself. God is not bound by time and space as we perceive ourselves to be. The question of faith is, against all our rationality, that He rose from the dead and, in some mysterious fashion, so will we.

As Tertullian declared:
"Crucifixus est Dei Filius, non pudet, quia pudendum est;
et mortuus est Dei Filius, prorsus credibile est, quia ineptum est;
et sepultus resurrexit, certum est, quia impossibile."
(De Carne Christi V, 4)

"The Son of God was crucified: there is no shame, because it is shameful.
And the Son of God died: it is wholly credible, because it is unsuitable.
And, buried, He rose again: it is certain, because impossible."

But then he believed in the Gospel:
"And Jesus beholding, said to them: With men this is impossible: but with God all things are possible."
(Matthew 19:26, Mark 10:27, Luke 1:37 and Hebrews 11:6).

The nut I'm trying to crack here is this - is the Bible the word of God or the words of men. Choosing which voices (gospels) will speak for God is bad form at the very least.
The Bible is the word of God recorded by men. If John wasn't an eye witness, then all four Gospels are the word of God remembered by men, told to other men, who wrote them down, because that it what they believed.
 
The bible is what men at the time believed to be or purported to be the word of G!d.

It is clearly the word of men, clearly thru their perspective, their agenda, their filter, with all their ego, power, glory, and benefit of the troubadour, the messenger at their side.

Divinely inspired, sure, but with all the issues of the above...yup.
 
Back
Top