Paul was the first Humanist

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WolfgangvonUSA

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Twelve apostles for twelve tribes, no room for Paul the Apostate Apostle.

It's interesting and quite revealing that Jesus always referred to
His apostles as 'the twelve', as if to underscore and permanently
intertwine and commingle the word 'twelve' with the word 'apostle'.


Jesus could have just referred to His apostles as 'the apostles' or 'my apostles' but He doesn't. To Him, they are always THE TWELVE, once and forever.



Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in
them the names of "the twelve apostles of the Lamb".



Mat 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first,
Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James [the son]
of Zebedee, and John his brother;


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Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye
which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall
sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve
thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


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Mat 20:17 And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples
apart in the way, and said unto them,


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Mat 26:14 Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto
the chief priests,


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Mat 26:20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.


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Mat 26:47 And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came,
and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief
priests and elders of the people.


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Mar 4:10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the
twelve asked of him the parable.


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Mar 6:7 And he called [unto him] the twelve, and began to send them
forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;


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Mar 9:35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them,
If any man desire to be first, [the same] shall be last of all, and
servant of all.


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Mar 10:32 And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem; and Jesus
went before them: and they were amazed; and as they followed, they
were afraid. And he took again the twelve, and began to tell them
what things should happen unto him,


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Mar 11:11 And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and
when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide
was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve.


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Mar 14:10 And Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve, went unto the chief
priests, to betray him unto them.


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Mar 14:17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.


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Mar 14:20 And he answered and said unto them, [It is] one of the
twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish.


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Mar 14:43 And immediately, while he yet spake, cometh Judas, one of
the twelve, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves,
from the chief priests and the scribes and the elders.


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Luk 8:1 And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every
city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the
kingdom of God: and the twelve [were] with him,


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Luk 9:12 And when the day began to wear away, then came the twelve,
and said unto him, Send the multitude away, that they may go into the
towns and country round about, and lodge, and get victuals: for we
are here in a desert place.


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Luk 18:31 Then he took [unto him] the twelve, and said unto them,
Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the
prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.


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Luk 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of
the number of the twelve.


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Luk 22:14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve
apostles with him.


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Luk 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and
sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


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Luk 22:47 And while he yet spake, behold a multitude, and he that was
called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them, and drew near unto
Jesus to kiss him.


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Jhn 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?


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Jhn 6:71 He spake of Judas Iscariot [the son] of Simon: for he it was
that should betray him, being one of the twelve.


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Jhn 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with
them when Jesus came.


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Act 6:2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples [unto
them], and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of
God, and serve tables.


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Act 7:8 And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so
[Abraham] begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac
[begat] Jacob; and Jacob [begat] the twelve patriarchs.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

1Cr 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:


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Jam 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the
twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.


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Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, [and] had twelve gates, and
at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are [the
names] of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in
them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.


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Rev 21:21 And the twelve gates [were] twelve pearls; every several
gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city [was] pure gold, as
it were transparent glass.

WHENEVER JESUS REFERS TO HIS APOSTLES, HE ALWAYS REFERS TO THEM AS 'THE TWELVE' OR 'THE TWELVE APOSTLES'



THAT IS MUCH MORE THAN A COINCIDENCE!!!!



Praise Yah!!!

Wolfgang


 
Re: Twelve apostles for twelve tribes, no room for Paul

hey are referred to as the twelve because there where twelve of them at the time and Paul never claimed to be one of the twelve that would judge the tribes of Israel. Also when Judas killed himself they where referred to as the eleven you want to know why because their where eleven of them. Until Matthias was chosen they where the eleven. Of course Matthias took Judas's spot as the person who would judge the 12th tribe not Paul in my opinion. But it doesn't change the fact that Paul was sent by Christ and received the necessary apostolic succession to be an apostle. Just because you have perverted what an apostle is doesn’t mean Paul all of a sudden isn’t one.
 
Paul has the audacity to say:
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

But is it not clear that Paul is leaving out the first and most important commandment of all?

Mat 22:36 Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Is it still not clear that the Pharisee Saul-Paul is a False Apostle?

2Cr 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Are these the words of a true apostle?

On the Judgment Day, how will Christians and their pastors explain their devotion to the words of this False Apostle?

And this brings Jeremiah 23 to my mind

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versions.pl?book=Jer&chapter=23&verse=1&version=kjvhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.pl?book=Jer&chapter=23&verse=1&version=kjv
Jer 23:1Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.

Jer 23:2Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

Jer 23:3And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

Jer 23:4And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.

Jer 23:5Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

Jer 23:6In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this [is] his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jer 23:7Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
Jer 23:8But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.
Jer 23:9Mine heart within me is broken because of the prophets; all my bones shake; I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine hath overcome, because of the LORD, and because of the words of his holiness.
Jer 23:10For the land is full of adulterers; for because of swearing the land mourneth; the pleasant places of the wilderness are dried up, and their course is evil, and their force [is] not right.
Jer 23:11For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the LORD.
Jer 23:12Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery [ways] in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, [even] the year of their visitation, saith the LORD. Jer 23:13And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err.
Jer 23:14I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.
Jer 23:15Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land.
Jer 23:16Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, [and] not out of the mouth of the LORD.

Wolfgang
 
Re: Twelve apostles for twelve tribes, no room for Paul

JJM said:
Just because you have perverted what an apostle is doesn’t mean Paul all of a sudden isn’t one.
Click to expand...
Now then, let us refrain from such hostility and devote ourselves instead to a scholarly discussion.

The Twelve apostles correspond to the Twelve tribes of Israel, the people of Yahweh, and there were just Twelve apostles of the Lamb so that does not leave any room for Paul as an apostle of the Lamb nor as an apostle for any tribe of Israel.
 
The trouble is that this argument is more invective than rational argument. You've taken Gal 5:14 and because Saul of Tarsus only references the self, you take it as a major contradiction of Mt 22:40, which references the self and God.

The fact that one quote is not completely referenced by a second is hardly going to stand alone as an argument against Saul of Tarsus.

The second is even worse - you basically set up your own personal perceptions of what a "true apostle" may or may not say, and then accuse Saul of Tarsus because you do not agree.

I have no idea why the title "Paul was the first Humanist" is somehow described in this thread.

Please note that you already have more than one thread running on the issue of criticising Saul of Tarsus - therefore it would be much appreciated if we could keep them together, to ensure we have a range of general discussions on issues of Christianity, rather than simply fill up the Christianity board with parts of a single larger argument.


EDIT: Merged with 12 Apostles thread
 
I said:
The trouble is that this argument is more invective than rational argument. You've taken Gal 5:14 and because Saul of Tarsus only references the self, you take it as a major contradiction of Mt 22:40, which references the self and God.

The fact that one quote is not completely referenced by a second is hardly going to stand alone as an argument against Saul of Tarsus.

The second is even worse - you basically set up your own personal perceptions of what a "true apostle" may or may not say, and then accuse Saul of Tarsus because you do not agree.

I have no idea why the title "Paul was the first Humanist" is somehow described in this thread.

Please note that you already have more than one thread running on the issue of criticising Saul of Tarsus - therefore it would be much appreciated if we could keep them together, to ensure we have a range of general discussions on issues of Christianity, rather than simply fill up the Christianity board with parts of a single larger argument.


EDIT: Merged with 12 Apostles thread
Click to expand...
"Paul was the first Humanist" is the title because Paul characteristically puts an emphasis on the commandment for we humans to love one another while consistently ignoring the command to love our Creator, Yahweh. This anthropocentricism is the essential characteristic of (godless) humanism.

It should be noted that many of the points I have been asserting may not, in themselves, constitute conclusive proof that Paul is a false apostle (or worse). Just as a criminal trial is not settled by one sole exhibit, so also is the allegation of fase apostle not settled by just one instance of incongruity, but rather by a preponderance of the evidence. I have only just begun to presnt my case against this Pharisee, Paul. Let the listeners make up their own mind when the presentation is complete.

Belittling or marginalizing my arguments as 'invective' does not mean they lack rational substance in any person's mind other than your own. In any case I am sure Victor would agree with me as many of my arguments run parallel to his own, and I must say that he engages in some (well-deserved) hyperbole or at least boldness in his own presentation.

Many other reputable scholars have found much fault with Paul, so be assured that my I do not stand alone in this cause but am supported by notable persons down through the centuries:

[size=+0]"Paul was the first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus!"[/size]
[size=+0]-- Thomas Jefferson[/size]

[size=+0]In one of the best books on early Christianity, Those Incredible Christians, Dr. High Schonfield reports:[/size] "For the Apostolic Church much that Paul taught was grievous error not at all in accord with the mind and message of the Messiah. The original Apostles could urge that the truth was known by them. But Paul had never companied with Jesus or heard what he said day after day [remember: Paul had never even met Jesus], and Paul's visions were the delusions of this own misguided mind.... "It was not only the teaching and activities of Paul which made him obnoxious to the Christian leaders: but their awareness that he set his revelations above their authority and claimed an intimacy with the mind of Jesus, greater than that of those who had companied with him on earth and had been chosen by him....It was an abomination, especially as his ideas were so contrary to what they knew of Jesus, that he should pose as the embodiment of the Messiah 's will....Paul was seen as the demon-driven enemy of the Messiah....For the legitimate Church, Paul was a dangerous and disruptive influence, bent on enlisting a large following among the Gentiles in order to provide himself with a numerical superiority with the support of which he could set at defiance the Elders at Jerusalem. Paul had been the enemy from the beginning. and because he failed in his former open hostility he had craftily insinuated himself into the fold to destroy it from within."



[size=+0]In one of the best books on early Christianity, Those Incredible Christians, Dr. High Schonfield reports:[/size] "For the Apostolic Church much that Paul taught was grievous error not at all in accord with the mind and message of the Messiah. The original Apostles could urge that the truth was known by them. But Paul had never companied with Jesus or heard what he said day after day [remember: Paul had never even met Jesus], and Paul's visions were the delusions of this own misguided mind.... "It was not only the teaching and activities of Paul which made him obnoxious to the Christian leaders: but their awareness that he set his revelations above their authority and claimed an intimacy with the mind of Jesus, greater than that of those who had companied with him on earth and had been chosen by him....It was an abomination, especially as his ideas were so contrary to what they knew of Jesus, that he should pose as the embodiment of the Messiah 's will....Paul was seen as the demon-driven enemy of the Messiah....For the legitimate Church, Paul was a dangerous and disruptive influence, bent on enlisting a large following among the Gentiles in order to provide himself with a numerical superiority with the support of which he could set at defiance the Elders at Jerusalem. Paul had been the enemy from the beginning. and because he failed in his former open hostility he had craftily insinuated himself into the fold to destroy it from within."



[size=+0]In the excellent book Christ or Paul?, the Rev. V.A. Holmes-Gore wrote:[/size] "Let the reader contrast the true Christian standard with that of Paul and he will see the terrible betrayal of all that the Master taught....For the surest way to betray a great Teacher is to misrepresent his message....That is what Paul and his followers did, and because the Church has followed Paul in his error it has failed lamentably to redeem the world....The teachings given by the blessed Master Christ, which the disciples John and Peter and James, the brother of the Master, tried in vain to defend and preserve intact were as utterly opposed to the Pauline Gospel as the light is opposed to the darkness."

[size=+0]The great theologian Soren Kierkegaard, writing in The Journals, echoes the above sentiment:[/size] "In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple. But then through Paul came a basic alteration. Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner. What Martin Luther. in his reformation, failed to realize is that even before Catholicism, Christianity had become degenerate at the hands of Paul. Paul made Christianity the religion of Paul, not of Christ Paul threw the Christianity of Christ away, completely turning it upside down. making it just the opposite of the original proclamation of Christ"

[size=+0]The brilliant theologian Ernest Renan, in his book Saint Paul, wrote:[/size] "True Christianity, which will last forever, comes from the gospel words of Christ not from the epistles of Paul. The writings of Paul have been a danger and a hidden rock. the causes of the principal defects of Christian theology." Will Durant; in his Caesar and Christ, he wrote: "Paul created a theology of which none but the vaguest warrants can be found in the words of Christ....Through these interpretations Paul could neglect the actual life and sayings of Jesus, which he had not directly known....Paul replaced conduct with creed as the test of virtue. It was a tragic change."

[size=+0]Robert Frost, winner of the Pulitzer prize for poetry in 1924,1931,1937 and 1943, in his "A Masque of Mercy", wrote:[/size] "Paul he's in the Bible too. He is the fellow who theologized Christ almost out of Christianity. Look out for him."

[size=+0]James Baldwin, the most noted black American author of this century, in his book The Fire Next Time, declared:[/size] "The real architect of the Christian church was not the disreputable, sunbaked Hebrew (Jesus Christ) who gave it its name but rather the mercilessly fanatical and self-righteous Paul"

[size=+0]Martin Buber, the most respected Jewish philosopher of this century, wrote in Two Types of Faith:[/size] "The Jesus of the Sermon on the Mount is completely opposed to Paul"

[size=+0]The famous mystic, poet and author, Kahil Gibran, declared in Jesus the Son of Man:[/size] "This Paul is indeed a strange man. His soul is not the soul of a free man. He speaks not of Jesus nor does he repeat His Words. He would strike with his own hammer upon the anvil in the Name of One whom he does not know."

Helmut Koester, in his The Theological Aspects of Primitive Christian Heresy:
"Paul himself stands in the twilight zone of heresy. In reading Paul, one immediately encounters a major difficulty. Whatever Jesus had preached did not become the content of the missionary proclamation of Paul....Sayings of Jesus do not play a role in Paul 's understanding of the event of salvation....Paul did not care at all what Jesus had said....Had Paul been completely successful very little of the sayings of Jesus would have survived."

There are many more of these quotations at http://essenes.net/NazPaul.htm
 
Re: Twelve apostles for twelve tribes, no room for Paul

WolfgangvonUSA said:
Twelve apostles for twelve tribes, no room for Paul the Apostate Apostle.

It's interesting and quite revealing that Jesus always referred to
His apostles as 'the twelve', as if to underscore and permanently
intertwine and commingle the word 'twelve' with the word 'apostle'.

Jesus could have just referred to His apostles as 'the apostles' or 'my apostles' but He doesn't. To Him, they are always THE TWELVE, once and forever.

Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in
them the names of"the twelve apostles of the Lamb".


Mat 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first,
Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James [the son]
of Zebedee, and John his brother;
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Act 7:8 And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so
[Abraham] begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac
[begat] Jacob; and Jacob [begat] the twelve patriarchs.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
1Cr 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jam 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the
twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, [and] had twelve gates, and
at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are [the
names] of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in
them the names ofthe twelve apostles of the Lamb.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rev 21:21 And the twelve gates [were] twelve pearls; every several
gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city [was] pure gold, as
it were transparent glass.
WHENEVER JESUS REFERS TO HIS APOSTLES, HE ALWAYS REFERS TO THEM AS 'THE TWELVE' OR 'THE TWELVE APOSTLES'

THAT IS MUCH MORE THAN A COINCIDENCE!!!!

Praise Yah!!!

Wolfgang
Click to expand...
Very good quotations but wait a minute!
Revelations 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in
them the names of"the twelve apostles of the Lamb".
Okay "the twelve apostles". But let's see how important is " twelve."
Revelations 21:10-12 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Revelations 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
Now, take a look at this:
Revelations 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
1. A proud look,
2. A lying tongue,
3. Hands that shed innocent blood,
4. An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations,
5. Feet that be swift in running to mischief,
6. A false witness that speaketh lies,
7. He that soweth discord among brethren.

When Christ called the twelve, one became a traitor. So, there was a need to replace the traitor. The calling or election of the twelve does not mean the "end" of the Apostolic mission in the early first century era. There was already an advanced statement from Christ.

Luke 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:

It did not say "I will send them the prophets and the 12 apostles, lol.
the wisdom of God said? Let us read what St. Paul said:

1 Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

So, it's clear. Christ is the power and wisdom of God. By the way, why should the calling of Christ's Apostles be "twelve"? Isn't Christ an Apostle? It cannot be true that Christ appointed the twelve and He himself is not an Apostle.

Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

By the way, emphatically speaking, "the twelve" is patterned after "the twelve tribes of the children of Israel. Meaning, the jurisdiction of "the twelve" is unto Israel's stock. The preaching started in Jerusalem and scattered throughout the world. In fact, St. Peter is the Apostle to the Jews, while as promised in Malachi 1:11, St. Paul was the chosen of God as the Apostle to the Gentiles. Furthermore, St. Peter, being an elder of the twelve, acknowledged St. Paul. We can read it in one of his epistles.
 
It should also be recognized that the Greeks and the Romans both had twelve G-ds and G-desses in their pantheon of deities. Perhaps the number of twelve leaders has some deeper meaning within western culture than just the obvious surface attributes such as tribal affiliations and apostolic designations, not to mention pearls, gates, etc.

I'm not on some kind of numerological "toot" here ar anything. Just asking a question. Anyone have any speculations/answers?

flow....:confused:
 
Hi WolfgangvonUSA -

It's worth noting that the Apostles - the 12 called by Jesus, accepted Paul as an apostle, as one called by Jesus to the ministry - as we all are, although we can never count ourselves among the 12, and nor did Paul - otherwise Paul would have not held the position of authority he held in the Church - and Peter and the others would not have supported him in arguing that one did not need to be Jewish, nor circumcised, to be a follower of Christ.

Peter's amazement at Cornelius having been called by God (to seek out Paul) and his household is proof of this (Acts 10).

Taking one verse out of context also is a poor argument - it does precisely what the Church has always said, a line of Scripture can only be understood in the context of the whole of Scripture, in the same way a proof of anything can only be read as a proof when read in the context of the whole argument - especially when one considers that Paul was, prior to his conversion, an educated Pharisee and, as one commissioned by authority to hunt down and try Christians, there can be little doubt about his Jewish orthodoxy.

Paul would have known the Shema Israel - Hear Oh Israel, so I think this argument collapses - as a Jew he would have believed it, and as a believing Jew he would have refuted any vision that said otherwise.

Consider 1 Corinthians, which states explicitly what Paul believed - we are baptised into Christ:
"Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name."

(Remember also that Paul was furious with Corinth when he wrote this!)

I would rather argue that Jesus Himself - and thus God - was the first true humanist!

Thomas
 
Excaliburton said:
seattlegal said:
You might want to read 2 Peter chapter 3, and make your own decision.
Click to expand...
Does Peter call Paul an apostle in this verse?
Click to expand...
Like I said, you might want to contemplate the entire chapter that Peter has written, and carefully consider the message contained therein.;)
 
seattlegal said:
Like I said, you might want to contemplate the entire chapter that Peter has written, and carefully consider the message contained therein.;)
Click to expand...

I suppose specifically you refer to verses 14-18:

"Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen."

Here the Apostle Peter is actually commending Paul on having the wisdom of God. Surely, the leader of the apostles would not do so if he thought Paul posed some sort of threat to the teachings which the Apostles learned from Jesus. Peter prefaces this statement with verse 2 in which he exhorts the hearers to the word of the apostles:

"That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour."

Honestly, I don't find any thing contradictory between Paul and Christ. You have to look at the audeicne each is addressing. Jesus was sent for the lost sheep of the house of Israel before His Passion. Paul was sent to the Gentiles afterwards as the wall of separation between Jew and Gentile comae down. The difference is that Jesus was speaking to Israel, who was still under the Law of Moses, while Paul spoke to those outside the Law of Moses, to a people who had no knowledge of the Law. So the emphasis of the message is different for each group.

And if you are looking for Pauline verses that speak of loving God, go to Romans 8:28, I Corinthians 2:9, I Corinthians 8:3, I Corinthians 16:22, 2 Corinthians 2:8, 2 Thessalonians 3:5.

Moreover, have you forgotten that loving our neighbor is the same as loving God:

"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." - Matthew 25:34-40

Seems that is loving you neighbor and God at the same time. I guess both Jesus AND Paul were both humanists.



 
Thoughts...

the two most important commandments are said to encompass all the other commandments...I think each standing alone also encompasses each other...

the twelve tribes were jostled as could be the disciples...could not Paul replace Judas if we intend to be litterally picky? J
 
seattlegal said:
Like I said, you might want to contemplate the entire chapter that Peter has written, and carefully consider the message contained therein.;)
Click to expand...

I have reread that chapter and the only reference to Paul is the verse that says he is just a brother (rather than an apostle), and that his writing is hard to understand (in contrast to the clear words of Jesus, I might add). When a person's writing is hard to understand, this gives rise to divisions that scatter the flock and many different denominations, eh? (You might want to read about the shepherds that scatter the flock in Jeremiah 23:1)

Too bad "Peter" did not elaborate further on Paul's "hard to understand" doctrine and proceed to clarify it for us all, but then again, what could Peter say after Paul had put him down as a Judaizer in Galatians 2? According to Paul, Peter may have been too confused to be of much use to anybody. And most Christians do rely on Paul for the final word in the event of any possible conflict between Paul and the TWELVE (who are often summarily dismissed as Judaizers).

On top of this, most scholars think that the book of 2 Peter was a pseudograph. (And the second chapter of 2 Peter appears to be a paraphrase of the book of Jude.)

Can you find any other quotes from any of original apostles in which they speak of Paul? In a book written by one of them? Correct me if I am wrong, but I can't find any other instance of John, Matthew, Mark, James, Peter or Jude mentioning Paul or his disciple, Luke, in any of the books they had written. Why the silence? Why doesn't Peter have the chance to defend himself from Paul's criticism in Galatians 2? Many questions to ponder.
 
seattlegal said:
Like I said, you might want to contemplate the entire chapter that Peter has written, and carefully consider the message contained therein.;)
Click to expand...

Perhaps you can explain how the entire chapter speaks of Peter's view of Paul's doctrine. Paul is the topic in just one verse of that chapter.
 
Excaliburton said:
seattlegal said:
Like I said, you might want to contemplate the entire chapter that Peter has written, and carefully consider the message contained therein. ;)
Click to expand...
Perhaps you can explain how the entire chapter speaks of Peter's view of Paul's doctrine. Paul is the topic in just one verse of that chapter.
Click to expand...
Indeed, the entire chapter is a warning about how scoffers will arise and who will twist the scriptures according to their own desires, and another warning not to be lead astray by them...
2 Peter 3 said:
1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts,
<snip>
14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.
Click to expand...
 
Yes, scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, because they think they are no longer under the law, as Paul had taught, contrary to the words of Jesus who said not one jot or tittle of the Law will be abolished until heaven and earth pass away and all the prophecies of the books of the Law/ Torah and the Prophets are fulfilled.

The note about Paul at the very end of 2 Peter is in the style of a postscript, an add-on or an afterthought, that does not have any real continuity with the verses preceding it. And Peter does not identify Paul as an apostle but merely as a brother.

In any case, as I said before,

When Peter announces that Paul's writing is hard to understand, this gives rise to divisions that scatter the flock and many different denominations, eh? (You might want to read about the shepherds that scatter the flock in Jeremiah 23:1)

Too bad "Peter" did not elaborate further on Paul's "hard to understand" doctrine and proceed to clarify it for us all, but then again, what could Peter say after Paul had put him down as a Judaizer in Galatians 2? According to Paul, Peter may have been too confused to be of much use to anybody. And most Christians do rely on Paul for the final word in the event of any possible conflict between Paul and the TWELVE (who are often summarily dismissed as Judaizers).

On top of this, most scholars think that the book of 2 Peter was a pseudograph. (And the second chapter of 2 Peter appears to be a paraphrase of the book of Jude.)

Can you find any other quotes from any of original apostles in which they speak of Paul? In a book written by one of them? Correct me if I am wrong, but I can't find any other instance of John, Matthew, Mark, James, Peter or Jude mentioning Paul or his disciple, Luke, in any of the books they had written. Why the silence? Why doesn't Peter have the chance to defend himself from Paul's criticism in Galatians 2? Many questions to ponder.

And these are questions you have not answered, but I welcome your response and the responses of others on this forum.
 
just before Paul was baptized and commissioned for his work, the Lord Jesus said to Ananias: "This man [Paul] is a chosen vessel to me to bear my name to the nations as well as to kings and the sons of Israel." (Acts 9:15;
 
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