What's so good about reincarnation?

[Nick the Pilot]

NJ,

It is said that the day will come when we remember all of our past lives. It has been said that Buddha remembered all of his. The idea that we will eventually be able to remember all of our past lives makes sense to me.

 

[Namaste Jesus]

NJ,

It is said that the day will come when we remember all of our past lives. It has been said that Buddha remembered all of his. The idea that we will eventually be able to remember all of our past lives makes sense to me.

Krishna says as much in the Bhagvad Gita as well. Even though I am Christian, that has been a big source of inspiration for me.

 

[Namaste Jesus]

This is my stand:

Even accepting Reincarnation is real, and one becomes progressively more 'good' in successive lives, to achieve 100% goodness ...what next ?

The point is:
There is no way to prove reincarnation apart from believing in scriptures. It will remain a belief.
The hope/desire is to achieve a 'perfect be good' state.

But why does one want to achieve a 'perfect be good' state? It is like asking why does one want to be a billionaire?

The belief arises from desire.

Well, from a Hindu perspective, once you reach the desired level of, goodness as you put it, ones earthly trials are over. The reincarnation cycle stops and you may then join God. That's a goal worth achieving in my book. "Belief arises from desire" you say... Nicely put.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

I agree that once we "reach the desired level of goodness" then we will be ready to move up to the next higher level of consciousness beyond the human level of consciousness. My belief system calls this next level nirvana.

NJ, if you are Christian, at what point do you think we are ready to rise up to the next level above the human level? At what point do you think the reincarnation cycle stops?

 

[Nothingtoknow]

Well, from a Hindu perspective, once you reach the desired level of, goodness as you put it, ones earthly trials are over. The reincarnation cycle stops and you may then join God. That's a goal worth achieving in my book. "Belief arises from desire" you say... Nicely put.

...and What happens when one joins God?

 

[Nothingtoknow]

I agree that once we "reach the desired level of goodness" then we will be ready to move up to the next higher level of consciousness beyond the human level of consciousness. My belief system calls this next level nirvana.

NJ, if you are Christian, at what point do you think we are ready to rise up to the next level above the human level? At what point do you think the reincarnation cycle stops?

What does man do differently in this next level nirvana?

 

[Nick the Pilot]

"What does man do differently in this next level nirvana?"

I have started a new thread, to answer your question:

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/what-is-nirvana-16774.html#post284108

 

[Namaste Jesus]

I agree that once we "reach the desired level of goodness" then we will be ready to move up to the next higher level of consciousness beyond the human level of consciousness. My belief system calls this next level nirvana.

NJ, if you are Christian, at what point do you think we are ready to rise up to the next level above the human level? At what point do you think the reincarnation cycle stops?

Essentially, once Dharma, or righteousness as us Christians put it, has been achieved, one moves on. As far as I can tell, there is no specific time frame to accomplish this, but it is believed by many in the Christian world that those yet to reach this goal after the second coming will be clensed of any remaining negativity in the lake of fire. Once clensed, they too will move on.

 

[Namaste Jesus]

...and What happens when one joins God?

That's a great question. Unfortunately, God is keeping the answer to himself. Some things are just well beyond human comprehension I suppose. I've put my trust in him thus far however, and he's never let me down. So, I'll continue to do so and eagerly await the outcome.

 

[Nothingtoknow]

That's a great question. Unfortunately, God is keeping the answer to himself. Some things are just well beyond human comprehension I suppose. I've put my trust in him thus far however, and he's never let me down. So, I'll continue to do so and eagerly await the outcome.

I am not surprised by your answer, in fact, I was expecting this.

'Beyond human comprehension' is the usual escape answer I have always found even from the spiritually advanced.

So, one doesn't comprehend during his lifetime and after death one is not really sure what happens.

How does one solve this problem apart from blindly believing what others have said?

 

[Gordian Knot]

NtK, what I believe the answer is faith. Faith is the act of believing when there is no proof to be had.

 

[Nothingtoknow]

NtK, what I believe the answer is faith. Faith is the act of believing when there is no proof to be had.

'no proof to be had?'

Would you believe me if I said I am the reincarnation of 'Aristotle' and after my death in my previous life, I went to heaven, met God.

I am sure you won't because I am not so convincing, you will ask for proof?

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

is the usual escape answer

I would suggest that just because you don't understand the value of something doesn't mean it's worthless. Your ignorance isn't a virtue.

 

[Namaste Jesus]

I am not surprised by your answer, in fact, I was expecting this.

'Beyond human comprehension' is the usual escape answer I have always found even from the spiritually advanced.

So, one doesn't comprehend during his lifetime and after death one is not really sure what happens.

How does one solve this problem apart from blindly believing what others have said?

Not an escape, just the truth. I had a similar conversation with an India Pandit in the Fiji Islands and both of us came to the same conclusion. It's like telling a child not to touch the stove because he'll get burned. Of course since he's not actually been burned yet, he has no idea what that means. If he trusts his parents however, he'll do as they say and leave the stove alone. If not, he gets burned. It's the same here. We have not experienced the otherside as it were and can only speculate what it may or may not be like, but as I've said, I've trusted God on more than one occasion and he's always come through for me. For me it's just a matter of faith. Either you have it or you don't.

 

[Nothingtoknow]

Not an escape, just the truth. I had a similar conversation with an India Pandit in the Fiji Islands and both of us came to the same conclusion. It's like telling a child not to touch the stove because he'll get burned. Of course since he's not actually been burned yet, he has no idea what that means. If he trusts his parents however, he'll do as they say and leave the stove alone. If not, he gets burned. It's the same here. We have not experienced the otherside as it were and can only speculate what it may or may not be like, but as I've said, I've trusted God on more than one occasion and he's always come through for me. For me it's just a matter of faith. Either you have it or you don't.

You said it right..
The fear of getting burned leads to trust and faith.
The desire to live and fear of death, I think, is the origin of faith, belief and trust. There is, I suppose, no other way out.

 

[Namaste Jesus]

You said it right..
The fear of getting burned leads to trust and faith.
The desire to live and fear of death, I think, is the origin of faith, belief and trust. There is, I suppose, no other way out.

The child in my analogy has no fear of being burned as he does not understand the concept. The only reason he does not touch the stove is due to the faith and trust he already has in his parents. As is my case with my faith in God. It has nothing to do with death or the fear there of. I base my faith solely on past experience.

 

[Gordian Knot]

'no proof to be had?'

Would you believe me if I said I am the reincarnation of 'Aristotle' and after my death in my previous life, I went to heaven, met God.

I am sure you won't because I am not so convincing, you will ask for proof?

NtK, believe it or not, we are not in disagreement in this particular case. Faith requires no proof, which is why I am not a big fan of faith. I prefer things that can be proven.

Concepts such as gods, an afterlife, there are no proofs available. By their very definition there can be no proofs. Which is why I am agnostic. One cannot prove their are gods, and one cannot prove their are not.

 

[Thomas]

The desire to live and fear of death, I think, is the origin of faith, belief and trust. There is, I suppose, no other way out.

Ah, the nihilist escape.

 

[Nothingtoknow]

Ah, the nihilist escape. ;

I call it the 'positive' nihilism.

I think Enlightenment is when you realise there is nothingtoknow beyond. Enlightenment is admitting defeat (in a way)and appreciating limitations of the human mind to perceive beyond its boundaries of thought. Enlightenment is when you don't look for answers, infact, stop questioning. You are in a natural state of existence. Realising you are unique but not any more worthy or special than other beings on this planet.

Desire/hope is the cause of misery, but there is no alternative.

Every belief arises from a conditioned mind. Hence, there is no belief you can call your own. In fact, the belief develops to suit your personality and ego (rather than the other way round)

There is no good/bad in nature. There are no rules in nature, rules are created by humans to facilitate his survival.

 

[Thomas]

I call it the 'positive' nihilism.

You're just trying to put the icing on nihilism.

I think Enlightenment is when you realise there is nothingtoknow beyond.

I think the evidence suggests when man says 'there's nothing more to know', he's invariably wrong. As soon as one says that, one begins to close the mind.

Enlightenment is admitting defeat (in a way) and appreciating limitations of the human mind to perceive beyond its boundaries of thought.

Is that not just ... defeat?

Enlightenment is when you don't look for answers, infect, stop questioning.

Logically, how can you possibly know with any certainty, when you've stopped looking? Does that not signify a lack of faith in self, rather than a lack of faith in anything else?

You are in a natural state of existence.

I have met many people with closed minds, and the last thing I would call it is anything like a 'natural state'?

I would have thought that 'inquisitive' would define the humanity's 'natural state' of existence?

Realising you are unique but not any more worthy or special than other beings on this planet.

Doesn't stop you wondering ...

Desire/hope is the cause of misery, but there is no alternative.

Sorry, but I'm not buying any of this. Wonder is the mother of the arts and the sciences, it's the pure art of being in the world. It wants none of this despair. I'm with Socrates: "The unexamined life is not worth living."

Every belief arises from a conditioned mind.

Nah, that's what 'they' want you to believe! There is ample evidence, in every field of human endeavour, to show we can overcome all manner of conditioning if we really try.

It's when one stops questioning that conditioning takes over, surely?

Hence, there is no belief you can call your own.

As the wise ones say, 'there is nothing new under the sun', but that has never stooped them.

Yet people continue to believe they can find answers where there are none ... and find them.

What one believes cannot be 'original' or 'unique' if its true, because if it's true, it's common to our nature. It's what we make of ourselves in the light of what we believe that makes us who and what we are.

In fact, the belief develops to suit your personality and ego (rather than the other way round)

Only if your orientation is entirely selfish. People can, and do, change. And again, the evidence is overwhelming.

There is no good/bad in nature. There are no rules in nature, rules are created by humans to facilitate his survival.

They are learned rules. Learned from nature. They're called 'natural law' and it's how the world works. How we facilitate ourselves in the light of that knowledge marks the difference between wisdom and folly.

The contemporary consumerist values of the West would indicate the latter path.

Ask yourself: Is this the way to raise kids? Don't wonder? Don't question? Just go with the flow? ('Tune in, turn on, drop out' — the great betrayal of the 60s?)