The binding/sacrifice of...

"...to follow a voice that tells you to kill your innocent son is tantamount to flying an airplane into a building because you think it's what God wants."

That would be true if you were some random dude who had a dream telling him to kill his son. However, here we are talking about a Prophet of God, who had been fighting idolatry for a long time and had been tested many times before. When this dream came to him he discussed it with his son. The random dude's son would reply yeah right you loony, sod off but Abraham's son said do what he must, so his son was aware of his Prophethood.
 
Muslimwoman said:
That would be true if you were some random dude who had a dream telling him to kill his son. However, here we are talking about a Prophet of God, who had been fighting idolatry for a long time and had been tested many times before. When this dream came to him he discussed it with his son. The random dude's son would reply yeah right you loony, sod off but Abraham's son said do what he must, so his son was aware of his Prophethood.
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Muslimwoman,

You may be right. But if so, what do you think the take-home message is for us random dudes? How should we apply the lessons of this story to our daily lives?
 
Marcialou said:
Amica,

Thanks for your in depth response to my post. It sounds like the interpretation of the near-sacrifice that I was taught in religious school 50+ years ago was essentially the same as the traditional Muslim one. I like the interpretation you cite which states that Satan tricked Abraham into thinking that Allah demanded the sacrifice.

Rabbi Michael Lerner retells a slightly similar story. He agrees unequivocally that God did not demand the sacrifice. He would never do such a thing. Without invoking Satan, he claims that Abraham imagined the supposed command because he himself had been mistreated by his father as a child. Abraham’s greatness was not that he was willing to obey God, no matter what, but that he finally realized that sacrificing Isaac was not God’s will at all.

I
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I'm afraid that the link that Amica gave you is a heretic site denounced by all muslims. Allah [swt] indeed command Ibraheem [as] to sacrifice his son, but was just testing him.
 
Marcialou said:
Muslimwoman,

You may be right. But if so, what do you think the take-home message is for us random dudes? How should we apply the lessons of this story to our daily lives?
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obey and put your trsut in God in all situations
 
Muslimwoman said:
"...to follow a voice that tells you to kill your innocent son is tantamount to flying an airplane into a building because you think it's what God wants."

That would be true if you were some random dude who had a dream telling him to kill his son. However, here we are talking about a Prophet of God, who had been fighting idolatry for a long time and had been tested many times before. When this dream came to him he discussed it with his son. The random dude's son would reply yeah right you loony, sod off but Abraham's son said do what he must, so his son was aware of his Prophethood.
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--> Well said.
 
Marcialou said:
I know only a little about Islam (although probably more than the average American.) Some years ago I learned from a co-worker that the Koran tells the a story very similar to one found in Genesis. In both versions God commands Abraham to sacrifice his son on an alter. The difference is that in the Koran the son is not Isaac, born to Abraham's wife, Sarah, but Ishmael, born to Sarah's handmaiden, Hagar.

In both narratives, Abraham goes along with God's order but in the end God rewards him for his obedience and lets him sacrifice a ram instead.

Comments anyone?
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Marcialou, have you ever heard of a Catch-22? That's a commandment supposedly to be obeyed by doing exactly the opposite. That's what IMHO, was the command to Abraham to offer his son Isaac in a burning sacrifice: A Catch-22. Take a look at this:

The Lord's Catch-22

According to a certain midrash reported by Thomas Mann in his book "Joseph and his Brothers," after a while that Abraham had arrived in Canaan, from his country and folks in Ur of the Chaldeans, he was deeply impressed about the deep love with which the Canaanites would love their gods as to offer their firstborn son in a burn sacrifice. Abraham would go frustrate to think that he could not express his love for Elohim in such a dramatic way.

As Abraham would try to chew that paradox in his mind, he fell asleep and had a dream. Elohim would identify Himself thus: I am Molech, bull-king of the baalites and command you to bring your firstborn son Isaac and offer him in a burn sacrifice to Me. As Abraham set about to do so, the Lord said, "How dare you! Am I Molech bull-king of the baalites? I expected you to know much better. What I have commanded, I did not command so that you would do it, but that you might learn that you should not do it; because it is nothing but an abomination in My sight, instead; and don't confuse the practices of the Gentiles with the People you will sire. Behold a ram; offer it instead.

As you can see, Abraham never even left his bed as the whole event was carried out during a dream.
 
Shibolet said:
Marcialou, have you ever heard of a Catch-22? That's a commandment supposedly to be obeyed by doing exactly the opposite. That's what IMHO, was the command to Abraham to offer his son Isaac in a burning sacrifice: A Catch-22. Take a look at this:

The Lord's Catch-22

According to a certain midrash reported by Thomas Mann in his book "Joseph and his Brothers," after a while that Abraham had arrived in Canaan, from his country and folks in Ur of the Chaldeans, he was deeply impressed about the deep love with which the Canaanites would love their gods as to offer their firstborn son in a burn sacrifice. Abraham would go frustrate to think that he could not express his love for Elohim in such a dramatic way.

As Abraham would try to chew that paradox in his mind, he fell asleep and had a dream. Elohim would identify Himself thus: I am Molech, bull-king of the baalites and command you to bring your firstborn son Isaac and offer him in a burn sacrifice to Me. As Abraham set about to do so, the Lord said, "How dare you! Am I Molech bull-king of the baalites? I expected you to know much better. What I have commanded, I did not command so that you would do it, but that you might learn that you should not do it; because it is nothing but an abomination in My sight, instead; and don't confuse the practices of the Gentiles with the People you will sire. Behold a ram; offer it instead.

As you can see, Abraham never even left his bed as the whole event was carried out during a dream.
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That almost makes sense. God never killed anyone and he would never expect anyone to do the same to honor him. As far as the ram, god never killed an animal either/. Everything that refers to that is symbolic and not meant to be taken literally./
 
donnann said:
God never killed anyone and he would never expect anyone to do the same to honor him.
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Ok, let us discuss the symbolism, metaphor, metaphysics...

Numbers 31 King James Bible
Vengeance on Midian
1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people. 3And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the LORD of Midian. 4Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war. 5So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war. 6And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand. 7And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. 8And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword. 9And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. 10And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire. 11And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts. 12And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.

13And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp. 14And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle. 15And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? 16Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. 17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
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wil said:
Ok, let us discuss the symbolism, metaphor, metaphysics...

Numbers 31 King James Bible
Vengeance on Midian
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Its symbolic to represent something literal. An example is Sodom and gommorah. The wife turned into a pillar of salt. Symbolically salt means immortality so she turned into a pillar of immortality at seeing what god did. God is love and everything he does saves life it doesn't destroy it. It only destroys the sin not the sinner. You have to think with a divine mind and know that no matter how it sounds the meaning is always something holy.
 
Let us not move goal posts... You said G!d never killed or ordered anyone to kill.

Please provide your interpretation to the above passage....where G!d is ordering after a war killing off a people, G!d orders them to go back and kill all the women and children and take the virgins for themselves.
 
donnann said:
That almost makes sense. God never killed anyone and he would never expect anyone to do the same to honor him. As far as the ram, god never killed an animal either/. Everything that refers to that is symbolic and not meant to be taken literally./
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Furthermore, if you read Jeremiah 7:22, "For I never spoke unto your fathers nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt concerning burn offerings or sacrifices." It means that Jeremiah knew all along that animal sacrifices were not to be part of the religion of Israel. They were allowed by Moses probably because, after 430 years of life witnessing daily to pagan sacrifices, the Israelites had formed a consensus that a religion without sacrifices would not be a religion. Since they wanted to be as all other nations, sacrifices had to be allowed by the authorities or there would have never been an exodus from Egypt in the History of Israel.
 
wil said:
Let us not move goal posts... You said G!d never killed or ordered anyone to kill.

Please provide your interpretation to the above passage....where G!d is ordering after a war killing off a people, G!d orders them to go back and kill all the women and children and take the virgins for themselves.
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Listen Wil, if you can prove that this literal interpretation of God is possible, I'll leave Judaism today. You can take what I am saying at face value. But you won't succeed because I am not of the kind of theists who believe in talking serpents. That time was of migrations and the Hebrews were not alone in their conquests of a city, to destroy all in the city and to save the virgin girls for themselves. Then, they would all refer their achievements to their gods to show how powerful their gods were. The Israelites were no different. Only after the return of the Jews from Babylon, a "new order" by means of Ezra and Nehemiah gave origin to a new Jewish culture which gained the name of Judaism. God has nothing to do with the way a man decides to live his life. The law of cause and effect takes care of their wrongdoings.
 
I am not looking for a literal interp of the bible...I am asking donann (or you) (after donann said G!d didn't kill or order deaths) for YOUR interpretation of that scripture...

I could have gone for Noah, or the exodus/red sea....

But this is the one that I'd like to hear.... a statement was made, I wish to discuss it ....that is what this is, a discussion forum...

For those who want some fun....look at the scripture discussed using Metaphysical Bible Dictionary | Truth Unity
 
wil said:
I am not looking for a literal interp of the bible...I am asking donann (or you) (after donann said G!d didn't kill or order deaths) for YOUR interpretation of that scripture...

I could have gone for Noah, or the exodus/red sea....

But this is the one that I'd like to hear.... a statement was made, I wish to discuss it ....that is what this is, a discussion forum...

For those who want some fun....look at the scripture discussed using Metaphysical Bible Dictionary | Truth Unity
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God never ordered any one to be killed. That was either man's doing or the victims were found in the wrong place at the wrong time.
 
Tikkun Olam said:
Jewish orthodox sources teach that abraham was tested if he'd listen to Gd. It was one of ten tests.
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You must quote where Abraham was tested so that I can see what was the test for. Most of them happened during a dream/vision.
 
wil said:
Provide you interpretation of this please...

Numbers 31 King James Bible
Vengeance on Midian
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Its a gross misinterpretation to say god ordered anyone to be killed literally. A holy killing would be the destruction of the sin but not the sinner. Its just like a beheading. It really means in the HOLY book to remove the carnal mind and to replace it with the divine mind, It doesn't mean you should actually chop someones head off. Jesus is the perfect example of what god is and does. He raised the dead he never killed anyone. If you think with a divine mind you come out with the correct interpretation, but it you interpret the scriptures with a carnal mind it comes out sounding like god is a sinner and hes not.
 
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