What makes you think you are right about belief?

[wil]

Is that the reason why so many hate so few?

No it is the reason the few, while being members of the 1% complain they are still downtrodden.... while they hold disproportionate numbers in regards to high paying jobs, powerful positions, political office, executives, actors, entrepreneurs, and still complain they are hated and mistreated...

nice misdirection.

 

[Gordian Knot]

All right GK, let us discard all the creators that creationists have established and see if we can find proof for the Primal Cause from another angle.
1. The universe exists an no one can deny it.
2. The universe is composed of matter and that's another undeniable truth.
3. Now, from the logical point of view, matter cannot cause itself to exist and there is no other way to spell it.
4. Therefore, the universe was caused to exit by some thing that preceded it and, obviously from outside of it. Whatever it was, let us call it the Primal Cause. What could it have been if not a supernatural intelligent Being? You can go ahead and set up your refutation. If it makes sense, I'll be ready to comply. If it doesn't you have the proof of God's existence.

This is not a proof of anything Shib. And you stubbornly continue to insist that matter cannot cause itself to exist, despite given theories how matter might (and I do say might) did indeed cause itself to exist. But a God can cause itself to exist; you are okay with that. In both cases something causes itself to come into existence. You unilaterally reject the first, and blindly accept the second. If that is what you need to believe that is fine by me.

Don't expect many others to agree with you though. Your logic tree is flawed because it is filled with comments that make sense to you. Just because they make sense to you does not mean they are truth.

Even if matter did not cause itself to exist, which I am absolutely willing to accept. The fact is we don't know for sure how it did. Suggesting that the ONLY possible answer is a Supreme Being is flawed. There could be hundreds of other reasons. Just because we don't know does not mean one can insert a God and claim it is the only solution.

This will probably be my last comments on this issue, as we are never going to be able to come to a meeting of the minds on this issue. You are free to have the last word if you like.

 

[wil]

Hello.... Logic. You can't prove a book is correct by writing in that book that it is correct.

Jesus....contemporary writings only exist in the book.

G!d....he says he wrote the book about himself...

self verification.... you fall for that and you'll fall for anything.


by their fruits you will know them....I'll give you that.

 

[Dan0813]

Hey Dan

I think the connection is always there whether we are aware of it or not, what do you think ?

exactly...tis us to open the curtain...sun is always shinin

I was referring to Wil's quote: "When rituals came into existence, God gradually began to fade out of it.”

The connection I had in mind was a conscious connection between the ritual and G-d. I think that belief is a deliberate choice, and the strength of the belief is maintained by accompanying one's rituals with a sincere, vocal affirmation of the belief.

 

[wil]

And I agree Dan....that that can happen...

But so many once they learn the steps to the dance.....they just dance.

It becomes rote.

 

[Shibolet]

Where did G!d come from then? what made G!d exist out of nothing?

Matter has always been here...

or matter was created when anti matter, dark matter, nothing matters was created....from the void going negative the positive had to appear...bang

The Primal Cause is not subject to time or space. Therefore, there is no question about "where or when" as It is concerned. From the view point of Logic, the Primal Cause is eternal and there is neither space nor time in eternity. For some thing to be made to exist it must be composed of matter or related to matter. The Primal Cause is neither for having preceded the universe. Therefore, It could not exist out of nothing as It has always existed.

For matter having always been here would be a contradiction to the concept of Causality. Matter had been caused, therefore it had a beginning. There is a consensus among most cosmologists from the day the big bang was formulated and proclaimed as the beginning of the universe. The problem with atheists is that the big bang theory was engendered by a theist Catholic Priest George Lemaitre in 1922 and the atheist grudge woke up that atheists cannot acknowledge such a discovery by a theist. They prefer to stick to the dead Aristotelian theory that the universe has always existed.

 

[Shibolet]

No it is the reason the few, while being members of the 1% complain they are still downtrodden.... while they hold disproportionate numbers in regards to high paying jobs, powerful positions, political office, executives, actors, entrepreneurs, and still complain they are hated and mistreated...

nice misdirection.

That spells envy by the many in spite of the intellectual progress of the few. You might want to review the "Essay about the Jews" by Mark Twain.

 

[Shibolet]

This is not a proof of anything Shib. And you stubbornly continue to insist that matter cannot cause itself to exist, despite given theories how matter might (and I do say might) did indeed cause itself to exist.

Can it? Can you prove that it can? Can you show us an evidence that it can? Enlighten us please with your knowledge of Physics.

But a God can cause itself to exist; you are okay with that.

Would you be able to produce the post where I say that I am okay that God can cause itself to exist? No GK, you can't because I never said such a thing. It would be a denial of Logic.

In both cases something causes itself to come into existence.

Show me one thing, just one will be enough that some thing, matter or related to matter, has caused itself to exist. I promise you that I'll quit being a theist and become an atheist; hard core atheist. But if you can't, I hope you will be great enough not to let pride speak louder than common sense.

Don't expect many others to agree with you though. Your logic tree is flawed because it is filled with comments that make sense to you. Just because they make sense to you does not mean they are truth.

It makes sense to me if not by other reasons, by default it does, due to your inability to refute what I say.

Even if matter did not cause itself to exist, which I am absolutely willing to accept.

No! Please, do not accept it in this tone that you are doing me a favor. Either show me the evidence that matter can cause itself to exist or admit you were wrong because of preconceived notions.

The fact is we don't know for sure how it did.

Not enough! If you don't know you must allow the possibility for the Primal Cause based on the concepts of Logic, Causality and Probability which you are denying from fear that the Primal Cause could be true.

Suggesting that the ONLY possible answer is a Supreme Being is flawed. There could be hundreds of other reasons. Just because we don't know does not mean one can insert a God and claim it is the only solution.

All right! You suggest that there are hundreds of other reasons. Please, mention one to me. If it makes sense I'll comply, if it doesn't, I'll tell you to bring me the next. I am sure you will give up after two or three of the hundreds you claim there are.

This will probably be my last comments on this issue, as we are never going to be able to come to a meeting of the minds on this issue. You are free to have the last word if you like.

You must know by now that I a Jewish man. If you can think like Mark Twain, do you think I would have to adopt a view that does not make sense to me just because I am supposed to pay homage to authorities? That would be too fallacious for a Jew.

 

[Shibolet]

Hello.... Logic. You can't prove a book is correct by writing in that book that it is correct.

Jesus....contemporary writings only exist in the book.

G!d....he says he wrote the book about himself...

self verification.... you fall for that and you'll fall for anything.


by their fruits you will know them....I'll give you that.

Where is it written that God wrote the book about himself? Quote please, if you want a reply.

 

[Dan0813]

Where is it written that God wrote the book about himself? Quote please, if you want a reply.

The traditional (orthodox) Jewish belief is that the five books of Moses come directly from G-d. In effect, they were dictated word for word by G-d to Moses, who wrote them down.

 

[Gordian Knot]

The more I ponder this topic, the more I perceive that anyone who believes they have THE answer is either a person of transcendental wisdom. Or they are deluding both others and themselves.

Gods, afterlives, Heavens, Hells, reincarnations, none-of-the-above, if people are going to be completely honest, seems to me, they have to be willing to admit that they might be wrong. We are all of us mortals in this reality we coexist in. The only concept that we can be really be sure about is that we are all experiencing this together - even if all of this is an illusion!

No matter how strong your belief, how sure of your information, how certain of what you have experienced, if you are going to be truly honest, you have to admit at least the possibility that you might be wrong.

If a person is incapable, or unwilling to admit that possibility of being wrong, it is difficult for me to take their claims of religious certainty seriously.

 

[Shibolet]

The traditional (orthodox) Jewish belief is that the five books of Moses come directly from G-d. In effect, they were dictated word for word by G-d to Moses, who wrote them down.

We are discussing the Scriptures. I asked for a Biblical quote and not for individual opinions.

 

[Shibolet]

The more I ponder this topic, the more I perceive that anyone who believes they have THE answer is either a person of transcendental wisdom. Or they are deluding both others and themselves.

Logic is infallible as a help to define the Truth. I am not using religion to get to the truth but Logic.

Gods, afterlives, Heavens, Hells, reincarnations, none-of-the-above, if people are going to be completely honest, seems to me, they have to be willing to admit that they might be wrong. We are all of us mortals in this reality we coexist in. The only concept that we can be really be sure about is that we are all experiencing this together - even if all of this is an illusion!

I agree with you as afterlives, heavens, hells and reincarnations to be all within the realm of illusions but you cannot include the Primal Cause or the concept of Causality has collapsed.

No matter how strong your belief, how sure of your information, how certain of what you have experienced, if you are going to be truly honest, you have to admit at least the possibility that you might be wrong.

If I am wrong about the Primal Cause, might as well throw Logic up to the birds.

If a person is incapable, or unwilling to admit that possibility of being wrong, it is difficult for me to take their claims of religious certainty seriously.

As I have said above, my argument is not based on religion but Logic. I may admit that I am wrong but you have first to prove to me that the concept of Logic is an illusion.

 

[wil]

lol....I thought you already knew them.

Exodus 24:4-7New International Version (NIV)

4 Moses then wrote down everything the Lord had said.

He got up early the next morning and built an altar at the foot of the mountain and set up twelve stone pillars representing the twelve tribes of Israel. 5 Then he sent young Israelite men, and they offered burnt offerings and sacrificed young bulls as fellowship offerings to the Lord. 6 Moses took half of the blood and put it in bowls, and the other half he splashed against the altar. 7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people. They responded, “We will do everything the Lord has said; we will obey.”

 

[Shibolet]

lol....I thought you already knew them.

Exodus 24:4-7New International Version (NIV)

4 Moses then wrote down everything the Lord had said.

He got up early the next morning and built an altar at the foot of the mountain and set up twelve stone pillars representing the twelve tribes of Israel. 5 Then he sent young Israelite men, and they offered burnt offerings and sacrificed young bulls as fellowship offerings to the Lord. 6 Moses took half of the blood and put it in bowls, and the other half he splashed against the altar. 7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people. They responded, “We will do everything the Lord has said; we will obey.”

Wil, to understand the Scriptures a reader must have some insight at metaphorical language. Think! If Moses had said to the people waiting for him to come down from Mount Sinai after 40 days that he had written the Decalogue, no one would ever accept or even respect what he had written. He had to embellish his work as if God had written every thing with His own finger. That's how religion goes my friend. That's what makes of religion a club for people who live out of the letter and not of harder understanding.

Focus yourself on the answer of the People: "We will do every thing the Lord has said and we will obey." How about if He had not said any thing as every thing came right out of Moses' mind? They would probably leave him then and right there. Do you want another strong evidence of what I am saying? Throughout the Tanach we have God asking for sacrifices and how and when they would have to be made. The truth though, was revealed by Prophet Jeremiah that HaShem in fact never commanded that animal sacrifices be part of the religion of Israel. (Jer. 7:22) Moses had to allow sacrifice to be made or he would never be able to effect the Exodus from Egypt. After 430 years of daily watching sacrifices in the religion of the Egyptians, the People wouldn't be able to think of a religion without sacrifices. I hope it makes sense to you.

 

[Dan0813]

And I agree Dan....that that can happen...

But so many once they learn the steps to the dance.....they just dance.

It becomes rote.

Wil, unfortunately my experience generally agrees with what you say.

But my studies of the classic texts indicate otherwise, that the rituals are not supposed to performed mindlessly. And performing the rituals by rote makes no sense to me.

So I make a conscious effort to fill them with understanding and meaning.

 

[Hermes]

Spiritual growth comes with certain experiences. You can always change your beliefs but what you know/experience you cannot reverse. You cannot unlearn something you have achieved (at least not in normal life circumstances - I am not going to into areas of brain damage or illness causing loss of mental faculties)
You know, I do not even believe in things anymore, I just keep an open mind and explore the possibilities and meditate - eventually it will be reveled to me (as it had), in no uncertain terms...

Watch and comment....

https://www.ted.com/playlists/8/a_better_you

 

[Aupmanyav]

But my studies of the classic texts indicate otherwise, that the rituals are not supposed to performed mindlessly. And performing the rituals by rote makes no sense to me.

Rituals cannot be performed by rote. There are so many actions to be performed that one is compelled to think. For example, I had to recite my name, my father's name, the relationship, and name of our blood line 108 times during his last rights. ' "Aham (I), Aupamanyava xx, son of Aupamanyava xx, grandson of Aupamanyava xx, pour this water in the memory of Aupamanyava xx, who fathered me." The images of three generations pass before my eyes, good and bad. How can one do that by rote? Those who established the rituals were very smart. The ritual dissolved all differences that I ever had with my father and with my son. He would do the same for me and will be able to understand me better, even if it would be after my death.

 

[wil]

108 times....hard to be rote with that....you may start out on the task and it become rote for a while...but then I can see the power of the number, and it becoming a meditative mantra each time it goes wrong sparking another thought, another memory, exposing, exploring, contemplating, circumambulating the relationship...

bliss overcomes just thinking about it...

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yes, 108 times, and I am thankful for that. Aupamanyava is the name of our blood line after a Vedic verse writer, Upamanyu, the Kamboja.