Permission to kill those who reject Islam

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andy_c

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Hi all
I got into an argument with some people who hate Islam. They're posting stories of ISIS atrocities and making comments about all Muslims being violent.
I've known some great people who are Muslims, so I took offense at their comments. The only problem is that they've quoted a verse from the Koran that says Muslims are justified in killing those who reject Islam. They argue that since all Muslims hold the Koran to be sacred, all Muslims must be filled with murderous intent.
I know that this isn't true, but I don't know enough about Islam to come up with an effective argument. Could somebody please help me out.
Thanks
 
What is the quote?

I'm betting that if you read the entire paragraph you'll find that that is a last resort, and only if attacked and only after all options are exhausted...

of course if you look in the bible as to what to do with non believers you'll find something similar...

Odds are though...you'll find that no evidence will convince them otherwise....but try anyway.
 
Hi Wil

I remember you from a few years ago - I used to be on here ages ago, I think called Cavalier.
Yes, I think it's important to try. It might sound crazy, but these are not bad people. I think they're scared and have been watching too much right-wing divisive media.
Yes, I'm sure there's a wider possible context for that verse - I can't tell you any more about it than I've already put forward - though I can't believe right-wing media would take something out of context to create controversy.
 
Ah yes, I remember you brother!

take a look at this, if it suits your needs, forward it to the detractors

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSuWWAk5HXQ

and then ask how that differs from this:

Deuteronomy 17
If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
 
I'm very grateful, not only for how it might help in this discussion, but also for the information I've gained.

I will forward it. I have little hope of achieving a breakthrough, but it's good to try.
 
Tell your buddies if they are really interested they should actually READ the Quran.

But tell them to be careful... Remember MuslimWoman? She was a Christian, a veteran, a feminist executive type. Due to a discussion about Islam and her belief that the Quran belittled and encouraged mistreatment of women....she read it to prove her point and then converted to Islam in the process...
 
Well, no one has yet admitted they're wrong, but there's a different tone to the discussion - I suppose that's progress.

It's funny, when I posted this thread, I was not expecting this response. When you make an effort, life is surprising, and that can only be a good thing.
 
Andy I take it your friends identify themselves with the Christian faiths? Tell them to take a good look at the Crusades and the brutality and atrocities of the Holy Christians at that time. Most all religions have had times in their histories where they have failed completely to follow the creeds they supposedly espoused.

As for having them read the Koran? I'm not at all sure that would be of any help. Since your friend's minds are already made up, they will only read into it what they want to justify to 'prove' their opinion is not misplaced.

It is a constant problem with holy books. One can take from them just about any opinion they wish to have by highlighting the commentary that supports their intended purpose, while minimizing any commentary to the contrary.
 
The funny thing is....well it ain't funny...but the interesting thing is...

those same quotes that the anti islamists quote to say how bad Islam is...the ones they take out of context are the exact same ones that the radicals take out of context to support their violence.

Reading...what a wonderful thing.
 
Guardian, yeah, they are Christians. I didn't want to bring up the Crusades, or Christian atrocities going on around the world, because these things could be argued away. I was always hoping for an explanation of that verse in the Koran, and that video Wil gave me really hit the mark.

Wil, yeah, reading certainly has its benefits.
 
Yeah, the crusades, old news, we lost our way, we are better now...whatever, that is discounted quickly

But that deuteronomy, stone those who go to other gods.... yeah, that is pretty specific and more direct than what the Quran says.
 
So whats the argument there?

BTW ISIS was made by Americans, Saudis and Turks to topple Assad, and obviously to install a "friendly democracy" there, just like Libya and Iraq. The same arab mercenaries were previously used in Libya, Its about Petro and Putin, not Islam. Anybody can shout Allahu akbar and do something stupid, but that doesnt make that stupidity Islamic.

There is Muhamad Asad's translation of Quran that I normally use, answers all questions about everything, and is available on the net for free. But people usually have an inclination towards listening and believing rather than investigating themselves and making their "own opinions".
 
Hi....here's what i know of Religous killing in the Islamic Perspective.

1. In what scenario can you kill a person in the name of religion......----->

(i) If he was once a muslim but has now Denounced Islam aka Apostasy [I NEED TO CONFIRM THIS. THIS IS WHAT I HAVE HEARD FROM MY ELDERS]
(ii) If the person insults the Holy Prophet pbuh and does not apologize.. THE INSULT MUST BE JUSTIFIED AS INSULT AND NOT AS CRITICISM [THIS IS PRETTY MUCH ESTABLISHED AND CONFIRMED ACCORDING TO ULEMA/SCHOLARS HOWEVER I DO NOT KNOW OF ITS DIRECT MENTION FROM QURAN and OTHER BOOKS]

I have no idea what ISIS is i just heard about it today. (Sorry for being so ill-informed. Their is a political crysis going on in my country and thats all we ever see on the news.)
 
andy_c said:
Hi all
I got into an argument with some people who hate Islam. They're posting stories of ISIS atrocities and making comments about all Muslims being violent.
I've known some great people who are Muslims, so I took offense at their comments. The only problem is that they've quoted a verse from the Koran that says Muslims are justified in killing those who reject Islam. They argue that since all Muslims hold the Koran to be sacred, all Muslims must be filled with murderous intent.
I know that this isn't true, but I don't know enough about Islam to come up with an effective argument. Could somebody please help me out.
Thanks
Click to expand...

Well, a very common error is confusing Islam with Middle Eastern terrorism. I come from Italy. I often go to Germany, and, when it happens, people always look at me as if I was one of those who work with mafia. In the same way, Muslims often are considered entirely terrorists although of course that's not true. Islam itself is a peaceful faith. To those who publish those verses you can answer with verses 4,90 and 60,8 and 2,256 of the Quran. Violence, in the book of Muhammad, is accepted only as a defense against other violence, and not always.
 
andy_c said:
Hi all
I got into an argument with some people who hate Islam. They're posting stories of ISIS atrocities and making comments about all Muslims being violent.
I've known some great people who are Muslims, so I took offense at their comments. The only problem is that they've quoted a verse from the Koran that says Muslims are justified in killing those who reject Islam. They argue that since all Muslims hold the Koran to be sacred, all Muslims must be filled with murderous intent.
I know that this isn't true, but I don't know enough about Islam to come up with an effective argument. Could somebody please help me out.
Thanks
Click to expand...

Obviously this is incorrect, but what was the quote?
 
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