The Objective of Atonement

S

Shibolet

Guest
The Objective of Atonement

The objective of the Atonement celebrated every year as "Yom Kippur" was a prophecy to point to the day when HaShem rejected Israel, the Ten Tribes and confirmed Judah to remain as one kingdom before the Lord forever. That's in Psalm 78:67-69.

Both kingdoms, Israel and Judah had rejected God's Covenant with His People but, God had promised David that Judah would remain as a lamp in Jerusalem for his sake. (I Kings 11:36) Therefore, Israel had to atone for Judah. Since then, Yom Kippur is still observed but in memory; no longer as a prophecy.
 
Seems more a Judaism lesson than ... Belief and Spirituality General thinking beyond the boundaries of religion and organised belief
 
Moved to the Judaism board, so that we can keep the topic focused. :)
 
Shibolet said:
The Objective of Atonement

The objective of the Atonement celebrated every year as "Yom Kippur" was a prophecy to point to the day when HaShem rejected Israel, the Ten Tribes and confirmed Judah to remain as one kingdom before the Lord forever. That's in Psalm 78:67-69.

Both kingdoms, Israel and Judah had rejected God's Covenant with His People but, God had promised David that Judah would remain as a lamp in Jerusalem for his sake. (I Kings 11:36) Therefore, Israel had to atone for Judah. Since then, Yom Kippur is still observed but in memory; no longer as a prophecy.
Click to expand...

Why did that change? Has the requirement of the fulfilled prophecy happened?
 
There's no mention of that prophecy in the Torah portions that discuss Yom Kippur. And even if that was the earliest reference to that holy day, so what?

Yom Kippur is the day that we fast and atone for our mistakes of the last year. That's what's important here.
 
LincolnSpector said:
There's no mention of that prophecy in the Torah portions that discuss Yom Kippur. And even if that was the earliest reference to that holy day, so what?

Yom Kippur is the day that we fast and atone for our mistakes of the last year. That's what's important here.
Click to expand...
then where does the prophecy of the coming deliverer or messiah come from? The whole point of jews not believing in jesus is because they are still waiting for the messiah.
 
One question. Who do jews think is the messiah? God, Michael ...just a regular man?
 
donnann said:
then where does the prophecy of the coming deliverer or messiah come from? The whole point of jews not believing in jesus is because they are still waiting for the messiah.
Click to expand...

No. The whole point of our not believing in Jesus is that we're not Christians. It's that simple. Your statement is as ridiculous as saying "The whole point of Christians not believing in Buddha is that they can't hear the sound of one hand clapping."

As far as the Messiah is concerned, it's not really a big deal to us. I don't recall ever hearing a 'drash (sermon) on the subject. I certainly never lost a wink of sleep worrying about it.
 
In my understanding, a premise of both Judaism and Buddhism is that there are questions about the unknown, and there is being a better person and dealing with reality in this realm...and of the two...dealing with the here and now, and your fellow travelers is a more worthy pursuit than being frustrated about conjecture on the unknown
.
 
wil said:
In my understanding, a premise of both Judaism and Buddhism is that there are questions about the unknown, and there is being a better person and dealing with reality in this realm...and of the two...dealing with the here and now, and your fellow travelers is a more worthy pursuit than being frustrated about conjecture on the unknown
.
Click to expand...

Very true--at least as far as I understand Buddhism, which isn't much.

Another similarity: You can be an atheist and still be a Buddhist or a religious Jew.

But here's the big difference--as I understand it. Buddhism encourages its followers to emotionally distance themselves from the physical world as a way to avoid suffering. Judaism encourages followers to emotionally embrace the physical world. Yes, that means you will inevitably suffer, but it also means that you'll find great joy.
 
Take suffering away from the jews? What will they talk about?

Note: there was a post along the way asking about judaism in a nutshell....since no one responded really...I posted something....of course the initiator was probably trying to get someone to do his homework for him...
 
LincolnSpector said:
No. The whole point of our not believing in Jesus is that we're not Christians. It's that simple. Your statement is as ridiculous as saying "The whole point of Christians not believing in Buddha is that they can't hear the sound of one hand clapping."

As far as the Messiah is concerned, it's not really a big deal to us. I don't recall ever hearing a 'drash (sermon) on the subject. I certainly never lost a wink of sleep worrying about it.
Click to expand...

My statement about jesus is not ridiculous because jews DO not believe in jesus because they dont believe he is the messiah they are waiting for. This is basic theology and nothing new. hashkafah philosophy - Are the Jews today still waiting for the Messiah to come? - Mi Yodeya

The difference between christians and jews is that christians believe jesus is still going to fufill the prophecies he didnt fulfill and jews dont believe he did that so they dont believe in whats called the second coming.
 
donnann said:
My statement about jesus is not ridiculous because jews DO not believe in jesus because they dont believe he is the messiah they are waiting for. This is basic theology and nothing new. hashkafah philosophy - Are the Jews today still waiting for the Messiah to come? - Mi Yodeya

The difference between christians and jews is that christians believe jesus is still going to fufill the prophecies he didnt fulfill and jews dont believe he did that so they dont believe in whats called the second coming.
Click to expand...

It was your use of the words "the whole point of Jews not believing in Jesus is..." that offended me. There is no single, simple point. I don't know how many Jewish leaders called themselves the Messiah or were called that by their followers. Usually, the followers go away after the leader dies. The only difference with Jesus is that the followers continued believing in him, and the belief caught on big with Greek pagans.
 
Originally posted by LincolnSpecter
The only difference with Jesus is that the followers continued believing in him, and the belief caught on big with Greek pagans.
Click to expand...

The belief caught on real big with the Roman pagans as well as several other pagan cultures, especially after Rome fell to the various "outsiders".

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
 
donnann said:
Why did that change? Has the requirement of the fulfilled prophecy happened?
Click to expand...

Yes, it happened when Assyria invaded Israel the Kingdom of the North and transferred the Israelites to Assyria. This event became the fulfillment of Psalm 78:67-69 when HaShem rejected Israel for good and confirmed the Lord's promise to David that Judah would remain as a lamp in Jerusalem forever. (I Kings 11:36)
 
LincolnSpector said:
It was your use of the words "the whole point of Jews not believing in Jesus is..." that offended me. There is no single, simple point. I don't know how many Jewish leaders called themselves the Messiah or were called that by their followers. Usually, the followers go away after the leader dies. The only difference with Jesus is that the followers continued believing in him, and the belief caught on big with Greek pagans.
Click to expand...

IMHO, the only difference with Jesus is that Paul needed to find a foundation for his new religion aka Christianity and he used Jesus in his gospel to replace the Theology of Judaism by fabricating the doctrine that Jesus had resurrected. (II Tim. 2:8)
 
donnann said:
My statement about jesus is not ridiculous because jews DO not believe in jesus because they dont believe he is the messiah they are waiting for. This is basic theology and nothing new. hashkafah philosophy - Are the Jews today still waiting for the Messiah to come? - Mi Yodeya

The difference between christians and jews is that christians believe jesus is still going to fufill the prophecies he didnt fulfill and jews dont believe he did that so they dont believe in whats called the second coming.
Click to expand...

We still have some, the unlearned ones who just don't want to reconcile themselves with the truth that the Messiah cannot be an individual but the People of Israel aka the Jews themselves. Logically, the individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not. The Messiah cannot die but is supposed to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jer. 31:36) Besides, Prophet Habakkuk in 3:13 says, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His anointed one." That's what the Messiah is, the anointed one of the Lord.
 
donnann said:
One question. Who do jews think is the messiah? God, Michael ...just a regular man?
Click to expand...
donnann said:
One question. Who do jews think is the messiah? God, Michael ...just a regular man?
Click to expand...

In my honest understanding, the Messiah is understood only through the collective concept of the People because, individually, as I have explained above, no one could be the Messiah.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top