History Repeats Iself #2

wil said:
Christianity is bad. Same interfaith song Ben has been singing all over the net for years.
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Well, I guess for Christians this seems to be good. They have robbed us of Jesus and now are trying to cast us away according to Gal. 4:30.
 
Robbed you of Jesus? I am confused. I thought your religion didn't think Jesus was anyone of any importance in the first place.

Cast away? You do tend to put things in the most severe ways. Why is that? Does all Christianity say your religion does not, or should not exist? I don't see an army of Christians marching to the drum that Judaism should be wiped from the face of the earth. Most Christians I know, anyway, seem perfectly fine with Jews believing what they believe. They just don't see it the same way. Of course they believe those of your faith are misguided. Most all religions have the 'my way is the only way' attitude though.
 
Shib/Ben has been preaching that his way is the only way for years... and while he is not alone in that.... the only other person I heard saying that one religion stole or co-opted another was a fellow we had here for a while that wanted reparations from Jews, Christians and Muslims for stealing the monotheism patent from Zoroastrians...

Yes Christians stole the OT and put it in the first 2/3 of their book and referenced it mightily in the last third... while his logic is specious, his passion and persistence are not.
 
Devils' Advocate said:
Robbed you of Jesus? I am confused. I thought your religion didn't think Jesus was anyone of any importance in the first place.

Cast away? You do tend to put things in the most severe ways. Why is that? Does all Christianity say your religion does not, or should not exist? I don't see an army of Christians marching to the drum that Judaism should be wiped from the face of the earth. Most Christians I know, anyway, seem perfectly fine with Jews believing what they believe. They just don't see it the same way. Of course they believe those of your faith are misguided. Most all religions have the 'my way is the only way' attitude though.
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Did you know that Jesus was a loyal Jew? Paul came and made of him a Greek with the doctrine of the demigod which is the son of a god with an earthly woman when he founded Christianity. (Acts 9:20; 11:26) Therefore, Christianity robbed us of Jesus. Does it help you in your confusion?

I have put nothing in the severest way most or least. Your comment is due to the fact that you do not read your NT. It is right there in Gal. 4:30. Cast our or cast away is the same. Christianity implies that Judaism is long gone and replaced with Jesus as if he was not a Jew but a Christian. (Heb. 7:12,22) Read the NT and you will see the foundation of Replacement Theology all around. See what I mean? "Misguided" to still think that it has not passed away. But they are all wrong because Jesus himself said that nothing of Judaism has passed away as long as heaven and earth exist. (Mat. 5:17-19)
 
I believe we all know Jesus was a Jew... We also all know he said things the Jews did not like. (according to the books we have) And that he started a sect of Judaism that morphed into Christianity...
 
So we assume that twenty years after the Crucifixion, Paul turns up with this unique and personal thesis that Jesus is 'the son of a god with an earthly woman' and reinvented Christianity, making Jesus 'a Greek with the doctrine of the demigod' ... We are to assume the disciples and the Church of the day all said, "OK, let's go with that and toss out everything we've been believing and preaching so far"? Even though Paul had never met Him, never heard Him preach?

That an infamous persecutor of Christians rocks up to the disciples, says he's changed his name to Paul, and now he's gonna change everything they've believed up to that point, and gets them to adopt a patently Greek vision of a demigod? Inventing, along the way, the Incarnation, the Transfiguration, the Resurrection?

Even though in Paul's own testimony of this revelatory vision, Jesus never mentioned anything about being the Son of God with an earthly woman? You'd think, that being the very core of his thesis, the one thing on which everything hangs, he might have had Jesus say something about it, to back-up and give some credence to this radical and very Greek change of direction ...
 
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wil said:
I believe we all know Jesus was a Jew... We also all know he said things the Jews did not like. (according to the books we have) And that he started a sect of Judaism that morphed into Christianity...
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Good! So, why Christians speak of him as if he was a Greek demigod which is the son of a god with an earthly woman? (Mat. 1:18; Acts 9:20) What did Jesus say that the Jews did not like? Mind to share with me? You should be able to understand that, as the loyal Jew that Jesus was, no more than 20% of the NT could be traced back as of coming from him or about him. Otherwise, he was not a Jew.

Jesus started no sect. Even the Sect of the Nazarenes, his disciples, the apostles were the ones who organized it on his behalf, and it did not result into Christianity. Christianity started already Christianity in the city of Antioch by Paul about 30 years after Jesus had been gone. (Acts 11:26)
 
Thomas said:
1 - So we assume that twenty years after the Crucifixion, Paul turns up with this unique and personal thesis that Jesus is 'the son of a god with an earthly woman' and reinvented Christianity, making Jesus 'a Greek with the doctrine of the demigod' ... We are to assume the disciples and the Church of the day all said, "OK, let's go with that and toss out everything we've been believing and preaching so far"? Even though Paul had never met Him, never heard Him preach?

2 - That an infamous persecutor of Christians rocks up to the disciples, says he's changed his name to Paul, and now he's gonna change everything they've believed up to that point, and gets them to adopt a patently Greek vision of a demigod? Inventing, along the way, the Incarnation, the Transfiguration, the Resurrection?

3 - Even though in Paul's own testimony of this revelatory vision, Jesus never mentioned anything about being the Son of God with an earthly woman? You'd think, that being the very core of his thesis, the one thing on which everything hangs, he might have had Jesus say something about it, to back-up and give some credence to this radical and very Greek change of direction ...
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1 - There was no "church of the day". The Church aka Christianity started with Paul about 30 years after Jesus had been gone. The Apostles of Jesus never had any thing at all to do with the church of Paul. There was no Christian preaching before Paul. Christians started being called Christians for the first time with Paul. (Acts 11:26) That Paul met Jesus, you have only Paul's word which did not deserve much credit.

2 - Listen Thomas, if you can quote in your own NT that Paul ever in his life persecuted a single Christian, let me know and I'll become a Christian. To speak like this, one must either be a mental case or he indeed knows your NT almost by heart. But you have my word, go ahead and produce to me a quote that Paul persecuted Christians and you have scored really high. Yea, that's exactly what Paul tried to do to replace the Theology of Israel into a totally Hellenistic version of Greek Mythology.

3 - Yea Thomas, Jesus indeed never mentioned any thing about being himself the son of God on an individual basis. Unless he did it but as part of the collective aka the People of Israel as you have in Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My son..." What Jesus mentioned, and many times over, was "son of man"
aka "ben-adam" which simply means "mortal". That's exactly what "Replacement Theology" means, a radical and very Greek change of direction from the Faith of Jesus which was Judaism.
 
Shibole, please reread this paragraph. You missed a vital part of it.
Thomas said:
Even though in Paul's own testimony of this revelatory vision, Jesus never mentioned anything about being the Son of God with an earthly woman? You'd think, that being the very core of his thesis, the one thing on which everything hangs, he might have had Jesus say something about it, to back-up and give some credence to this radical and very Greek change of direction ...
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wil said:
Mental Case? Really Ben?

You do realize we all read your posts do you not?
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I hope so! Again, if you see a Jew or any one else claiming he is God, be sure that he is a mental case.
 
Shibolet said:
1 - There was no "church of the day". The Church aka Christianity started with Paul about 30 years after Jesus had been gone.
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Nonsense. There was a Church in Jerusalem, for a start.

Shibolet said:
Listen Thomas, if you can quote in your own NT that Paul ever in his life persecuted a single Christian, let me know and I'll become a Christian.
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Er, have you read Galatians? Chapter 1 will suffice. And it's an authentic epistle.

Shibolet said:
one must either be a mental case or he indeed knows your NT almost by heart. But you have my word, go ahead and produce to me a quote that Paul persecuted Christians and you have scored really high.
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Don't know it by heart, but it seems I know it better than you. How much of Paul have you actually read?

Shibolet said:
Yea Thomas, Jesus indeed never mentioned any thing about being himself the son of God on an individual basis.
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"And he said to them: You are from beneath, I am from above. You are of this world, I am not of this world" John 8:23.
 
Well I felt this opinion needed airing. Maybe not.

Jews concocted sin -- Adam, symbolizing all humanity, shows up and simultaneously sin entered the world through the convoluted mind of priests and scribes. Their pitch? God created sin! In reality priest created sin, priest needed sin, if not, who would require priestly intercession?

Sin is the foundation of the Judeo/Christian religion and the central theme of the Torah. To paraphrase The Catholic Encyclopedia: [God is omniscient and omnipotent and always good and always compassionate -- due to faith. It is hard to account for sin in his creation. Evil is the fundamental problem in all theology.] Geez, the penalty for sin is great too. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." (Ezekiel 18:4) and Moses writes "Be sure your sin will find you out." (Numbers 32:23) Priests quickly grasped and pitched the two strongest motivators, hope and fear!

Enter Paul: "If righteousness come by law, Christ is dead in vain". (Gal 2:21)

Paul apparently felt the need to combine the pagan sun god worship with Jewish scripture and that morphed into what is frequently called Pauline Christianity. Paul reiterated: We are all sinners in Romans 11:3. In Romans 3:23 it is simply written "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Although atonement had allegedly been paid by the sacrifice of Jesus the 'radical rabbi' insisted that the intercession of a priest was necessary to obtain the grace of god. Accepting Jesus was a fast track to eternity for the pagans that Paul so desperately sought to convert but their salvation was only through the intersession of the priest.

Paul expounds on an existing problem and then inflates that problem to create even larger problems for which he offers 'the' solution. Once again -- Obedience to the priests! Then in 2 Cor. 9:5-7 he proceeds to, once more, tell us to not forget our generous gifts. Here we go again. Power and money...

As Christianity matured so did the idea of sin. Sin was no longer just an action but thoughts as well. (1 John 3:15)

Supported by the power of Rome, Pauline Christian fanatics were worse than Jews had ever been. Seek out and punish sinners was Paul's version of Christianity.
 
A very artificial perspective of the whole process, Edgy.
Is not a(or the) moral aspect of Abrahamic religions? The nature of man and how to conduct herself to achieve...whatever it is. On the top of my head I see what corresponds to sin in Stoicism, Buddhism, Taoism and Shinto. I think what people object to is the idea that God punish people for not following his rules, which can seem arbitrary on their own. But I think we could just as well view the pain from sinning as the direct effect of our actions simply because our nature. The Jews "concocted" their idea of the human nature and how to relate to it. The parts of Paul's letters to the Churches that comes to my mind also lists correct conduct as not to be overcome by greed, lust, anger and whatever problems that had been reported. This I think is a more organic perspective that rings more true to me.
 
I am surely thankful COT that everyone doesn't see things the same way I do. Otherwise, at one time in my life, all men would want my bride :)
 
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