Religious Tradition, of God or of Man?

Namaste Jesus... Thanks for your post!

From religion to religion this could vary... Some indicate the tradition has authority because it was passed down over time... I would suggest this would be more widely the case in older religions. The test in my view would be if it could be demonstrated that the Messenger of God Himself had ordained the "tradition"... and not just ordained it but provided the actual procedures in acting out the practice.

So issues like baptism, communion, eucharist which split and divide say religion among the Christians or rituals used in other religions could be resolved perhaps if the evidence were provided.
 
arthra said:
So issues like baptism, communion, eucharist which split and divide say religion among the Christians or rituals used in other religions could be resolved perhaps if the evidence were provided.
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It seems to me every religion has their 'evidence' which proves that their tradition is accurate and ordained.... evidence enough for them...evidence not enough for others... hence when you find a religion whose 'evidence' you believe, the religion resonates with you... and makes us Bahai, Christian, Muslim, Hindu etc. And when you don't see the 'evidence' that others do you end up atheist or agnostic...
 
Nj, your question presumes there are Gods. I do not know if there are Gods or not; the material supporting their existence thus far has failed to impress me. Which means rituals and ceremonies are manmade by default.

If I were to assume for a moment that there are Gods, even then I see no direct correlation between these Gods and the rituals and ceremonies. From my point of view religions are the construct of mortals. As evidence I put forth the huge number, fractured, and radically different religions currently in place on the planet. Gods are far more perfect than people and it follows that their religions should also be far more perfect than humans if the religions are born out of the Gods.

The most positive suggestion I could come up with, again taking the assumption that Gods exist at all, is that Gods may have handed down the religions, and humans over time have done a terrible job of staying on the original path they were given. In this scenario even if Gods made the religions for humans to follow, humans have over the centuries altered the original edicts to suit their own needs, desires and wishes. Which again leaves us with rituals and ceremonies are currently of men.
 
Namaste Jesus said:
Every religion has various rituals and ceremonies associated with it. Are these traditions of God or of man?
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The idea behind religious tradition is to honor God. So those traditions are of God or at least about God, but how best to honor God is subject to the interpretations of man, as traditions vary quite a bit even within a specific religion.
 
I view religious rites as communication between man and God, and end every puja with a harmony between the three worlds chant. So it's both.
 
IMO, traditions are based on different things in different religions. Certain forms of Buddhism's traditions are known by its followers to be created by man, yet the man they mimic they view as very high. Abrahamics are mixed. Some from God (i.e. Jewish sacrifice technique, Islamic recitations, etc.) and some are from prophets (be it directly or as a medium from God), then there are those created by man wholly (I'll leave this one alone as not to stir the pot from any of the Abrahamics). In Islam the last group is supposed to be forbidden, but we can see on the news and even in everyday beliefs of some here in the West that that hasn't stopped some from being interjected.
 
Well it appears that G!d hasn't written ANYTHING....nor said ANYTHING since we've had audio recordings...nor appeared to ANYONE with all our video cameras and smart phone cameras... For some reason 1500-2500 years ago the old boy was quite vocal...
 
wil said:
Well it appears that G!d hasn't written ANYTHING....nor said ANYTHING since we've had audio recordings...nor appeared to ANYONE with all our video cameras and smart phone cameras... For some reason 1500-2500 years ago the old boy was quite vocal...
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That sounds entirely appropriate from an Islamic standpoint. From our view, there isn't supposed to be any. If his message is complete and his designated path established, what more does he need to say? And if he has already sent his FINAL messenger, who would he amend his word with? I undersand Baha'is believe in another Prophet, (please correct me if I'm wrong Arthra) but for the most part Mouhammed (PBUH) was the last prophet to have shown up in the case of all major religions (obviously neglecting the living prophetic beliefs of some Christian and Jewish denominations).

Unless of course you count the clouds, pancakes, rocks, wet spots, etc. that are photographed daily that supposedly resemble Jesus (PBUH). Not really sure why Jesus (PBUH) looks like Jared Leto though.
 
Sure Islam says that they have the last prophet... Both Christianity and Judaism claim their books cannot be changed and are the last word.... this is not uncommon. Everybody wants their word to be the last word on the topic (except the Bahai (in the abrahamic line) who say theirs is not the end, there will be more prophets)
BigJoeNobody said:
Unless of course you count the clouds, pancakes, rocks, wet spots, etc. that are photographed daily that supposedly resemble Jesus (PBUH). Not really sure why Jesus (PBUH) looks like Jared Leto though.
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Was waiting for that.... I knew it would come... didn't know from who...
 
wil said:
For some reason 1500-2500 years ago the old boy was quite vocal...
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This has always been a conundrum for me. If what JC had to say was so important, why did he wait so long? There is at least 5,000 years of human civilization (probably closer to 10,000) that had passed without a peep from God. It seems to me if the message was that important it would have been delivered somewhere close to when human civilizations began. Actually it should have been well before that! Add in hunger/gatherer societies and that is more like 20,000 to 30,000 years before God spoke up.
 
Oh according to the books...G!d was peepin....he did rest for an era after 6 eras of creation.... but then he got goin with all them prophets... of course today when G!d speaks to someone....it is always the homeless....or a politician...or a televangelist....or a suicide bomber...
 
wil said:
Both Christianity and Judaism claim their books cannot be changed and are the last word
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And where do you derive this? where did either text say there is no more to come. Or that these series of books we have today were the complete collection?
Devils' Advocate said:
This has always been a conundrum for me. If what JC had to say was so important, why did he wait so long? There is at least 5,000 years of human civilization (probably closer to 10,000) that had passed without a peep from God. It seems to me if the message was that important it would have been delivered somewhere close to when human civilizations began. Actually it should have been well before that! Add in hunger/gatherer societies and that is more like 20,000 to 30,000 years before God spoke up.
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well when reading the Torah and Bible, you can see the message was there from the beginning. The most important commandment God ever gave was delivered to every prophet including Adam (PBUH). There is only 1 God and there are no others to be worshipped. As society developed the need to disclose his intended methods were revealed with each prophet gaining more of the message. It wouldn't make sense to tell Adam (PBUH) how to handle law and punishment, there weren't enough people to enforce it on. He also hadn't experienced enough of the world to understand the scientific agreements found in later texts. If I recall correctly Adam (PBUH) wasn't even the one to banish Cain, as God himself did. Language and writing also wasn't established yet so having Adam memorize or write the whole law (whether it be the Torah, Bible, or Quran) would never have worked. I realize you are Agnostic-(at least ish) and therefore reject most "proofs" given in text, so I am just offering this as an explanation of possibility. Archeology tells us that Animism is the oldest religion, ie creating images of Gods from that of natural things. There is a lot of evidence of this. There is also evidence in the Torah that says the number of believing people was never high between the times of Adam and Noah (PBUThem), therefore you shouldn't find much evidence in large quantities (given the Abrahamic view is correct).

wil said:
or a suicide bomber
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assuming you are primarily referring to those claiming Islamic backgrounds, I doubt even as messed up in the head as they are, that they claim to have been told by Allah to do these acts, but rather that they believe Allah will reward them for their martyrdom, although as we've discussed many times, cannot be reached by killing innocent people.
 
Phew, looks like the discussion got deviated from the topic. :)
Here's my view:
Religious traditions are of men. As traditions are inherited from men, to men, so these are to be formed by men.
Whatever god formed, remained for everbody, it survived without inheritance.
Take for example, the earth, the sun, the trees... and so forth.
 
Yes Religious Zealots claim all the time to be told by G!d or ordained by G!d to go kill people.... tis a religious tradition recorded in the Torah, Bible and Quran. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa

In matthew it says not one jot or tittle shall change.... For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. and for Jews Deuteronomy says the same,
And now, O Israel, hearken to the statutes and to the judgments which I teach you to do, in order that you may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord, God of your forefathers, is giving you. Do not add to the word which I command you, nor diminish from it, to observe the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.
 
BigJoeNobody said:
I realize you are Agnostic-(at least ish) and therefore reject most "proofs" given in text, so I am just offering this as an explanation of possibility.
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Deist actually.

BigJoeNobody said:
well when reading the Torah and Bible, you can see the message was there from the beginning.
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Yes I agree it seems reasonable from within the Abrahamic traditions. From a wider world perspective though it falls apart. There are many religious cultures before the Abrahamics. Sumeria is probably the oldest and first group to move from hunter/gatherers to an agrarian society. There is no mention of Abrahamic beliefs in their theology. Many other pre-Abrahamic civilizations as well. So my question stands. If what JC had to say was to important to mankind, why did he let thousands of years of civilization pass before he chose to come down and set them straight?

And while I am at it, here's another conundrum I have. If the Abrahamic traditions are really that important, why did they only give the scoop in the Middle East? Why ignore the ancient Americans. Or the Far Eastern cultures. Or the Oceanic ones. If it was a message for all mankind seems to me it should have been given to all mankind!
 
wanderer said:
Phew, looks like the discussion got deviated from the topic. :)
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Always seems to happen sooner or later, doesn't it? Let me see if I can steer the ship back on course.

In my opinion, religious tradition, if not religion itself, is a man made constrict. So for me, there is no question that religious tradition is of man. The real question is, are these traditions being followed for the glorification of God or for the glorification of man? That is, are you following a said tradition because, based on your knowledge and experience, it's the right thing to do, or are you just trying to show others how holy you are?

In conclusion, even the most sacred of religious traditions can be done for the glorification of man rather than the glorification of God. It all depends on motive.
 
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