Aussie Thoughts
Just my 2 cents
Good point, but remember; Satan was once revered as well... until he became a murderous deceitful little turd!
Debate: Is Islam a Threat to the West?
- Thread starter Amica
- Start date
H
Hermes
Guest
it was a follow up to this...
http://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/17781/page-2#post-300978
and to the general idea of inequality in the world.
http://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/17781/page-2#post-300978
and to the general idea of inequality in the world.
BigJoeNobody
Professional Argument Attractor
in our tradition he was a djinn (other self aware, free will creation of God made of flame) who was so pious he lived amongst angels. And it wasn't until he refused God's command that he began acting in the way we all read about.
Aussie Thoughts
Just my 2 cents
The Aboriginals of Australia often refer to Satan as the Angel of Creation. In their story he was a good guy right up until the time he turned rogue.
H
Hermes
Guest
Not to pick on words(names) but are you not talking about Lucifer? Satan is a misnomer....
Aussie Thoughts
Just my 2 cents
As far as I know it's all the same bloke mate. Here's a few more names he goes by and that's just from the Christian side of things. http://www.markbeast.com/satan/names-of-satan.htm
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BigJoeNobody
Professional Argument Attractor
Lucifer, Iblis, Satan, Shaytan, etc all the same.
S
socialleper
Guest
They are absolutely not.
Satan is an angel that works for God that tests humans on God's behalf, including Jesus.
In the four main Gospels Jesus mentions Satan but never in direct connection to Hell. The term Devil is used in the NT but that Satan is the Devil is a supposition.
The name Lucifer is a mistranslation of a metaphor being used by the Psalmist and not meant to refer to an actual character. What's more, that character is never linked to Satan. Satan is also never truly linked to the Serpent in the Garden of Eden, this is a shoe horned idea that came about later.
Go back and look at woodcut prints from the Dark Ages. They depict Satan and Lucifer as different physical entities that were often shown conversing with one another. 90% of the what we think of Hell and/or the Devil has no basis in scripture and is the product of fictional works like Paradise Lost and The Divine Comedy.
BigJoeNobody
Professional Argument Attractor
This is a common argument that the ideas of Hellfire came about in the "Dark Ages" or recounts of Greek Mythologies, but that seems to be a very difficult since the idea of Hell seems to be understood by some Jewish references in OT. Satan shouldn't be directly linked to hell, he is not the keeper of it, or creator. He is merely a future inhabitant (and I'm about to delve into Islamic Theory that when taken into account explains a lot of what, at least for me, is meant in the Bible). Now the Bible claims he was a Disobedient Angel who fell from the graces of God, but that makes no sense. Quran and Bible agree that Angels are not a creature of free will. God commands, they do, no thoughts other than that of what is ordered. So how could something with no thoughts of his own defy God? The Quran explains this, Satan was a Djinn named Iblis. Djinn are a free will creation much older than man which is created of smokeless fire. He had gained Favor from Allah and rose to the status of being Amongst the Angels. To Adam (PBUH), he would not have felt compelled to call him anything but an angel due to his status. But after his fall, he was no longer of the Angels, and referred to from that point on as Shaytan (translated Satan).
Lucifer is a name given in Isaiah alone, yes. I will give you that I cannot deny that it is a mistranslation, but I do know many a Jew who would agree that Lucifer is a translation of his name prior to his fall.
Aussie Thoughts
Just my 2 cents
In Australian Aboriginal culture. The angels didn't have free will, but they were autonomous. That is, they were required to do as God bid, but could still think for themselves. In other words, God told them what to do, but not how to do it. As far as Satan is concerned. He's often referred to as the Angel of Creation, but their description of him seems to indicate he was something more than a mere angel. He was more or less in charge of the angels. Now the angels could only take orders from God, but Satan was able to get some of them to follow him by pretending to be God. That's also how he deceived the Aboriginal version of Adam and Eve. Interesting stuff, but I get a headache thinking about it.
S
socialleper
Guest
But Lucifer ISN'T Satan or the Devil, and is never disobedient. I believe that the entire passage in Isaiah is aimed at the leaders of Babylon and are just an insult couched in a myth. The entire thing is then turned into a very elaborate story by John Milton that some people think actually means something.
The only accounts of Satan being actually evil or aligned with the "devil" are by the Apostles who are little more than commentary. They are regular humans that know nothing of metaphysics. Satan did the job God gave him; you may not like it, but God cares little for what humans like.
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S
socialleper
Guest
I jumped into this thread when I saw the Satan/Devil/Lucifer stuff, but I suppose I should actually address the OP.
Is Islam a threat to the "West"?
That's a tough question to ask. Because of European history we tend to think that the Christian "west" and the Muslim "east" are locked in some kind of winner take all battle. This ignores that many in the "west" don't want to be either, and also ignores that massive number of the Christian that are east of the Middle East (Russia), or the mixed bag of Far East traditions (Hinduism, Buddhism, Toaism, Chinese Nationalism, etc.)
If Islam is a violent religion of conquerors that insist the entire world be Muslim, then they are a threat to everyone. I will never be a Muslim, and will fight to the death to not have any orthodoxy shoved down my throat. The most aggressive, noisiest proponents of Islam seem to be this type.
If Islam is the religion of peace that it claims to be, then it is only a threat in so far as any religion that has people talking to themselves and wishing for answers to very real human problems.
I live by a pretty simple code: Do what you want, just don't tell me about it and don't expect me to care about it. Keep it to yourself and I'll keep my thoughts to myself. Tell me I'm doing something wrong or what I need to do and we will have a problem.
Is Islam a threat to the "West"?
That's a tough question to ask. Because of European history we tend to think that the Christian "west" and the Muslim "east" are locked in some kind of winner take all battle. This ignores that many in the "west" don't want to be either, and also ignores that massive number of the Christian that are east of the Middle East (Russia), or the mixed bag of Far East traditions (Hinduism, Buddhism, Toaism, Chinese Nationalism, etc.)
If Islam is a violent religion of conquerors that insist the entire world be Muslim, then they are a threat to everyone. I will never be a Muslim, and will fight to the death to not have any orthodoxy shoved down my throat. The most aggressive, noisiest proponents of Islam seem to be this type.
If Islam is the religion of peace that it claims to be, then it is only a threat in so far as any religion that has people talking to themselves and wishing for answers to very real human problems.
I live by a pretty simple code: Do what you want, just don't tell me about it and don't expect me to care about it. Keep it to yourself and I'll keep my thoughts to myself. Tell me I'm doing something wrong or what I need to do and we will have a problem.
Sam Albion
akaFrancisKing:ViveLeRoi!
i know this thread is old, but I haven't been around to reply to it!
Is Islam a threat to the West?
Well, here's my take on it. I was raised a Catholic, in England, in the 1980's, and encouraged, by my Irish family, to HATE the Proddies. Proddies were scum, and the cause or all our catholic woes. We didn't mix with the Prods. We didn't have Prod friends. If an acquaintance revealed they were not Catholic, we never spoke to them again. That was how it was, back then.
The next step from this was.... throwing stones at the Orange Lodge when they marched. I remember being eight years old, with my Dad, hurling half-setters (not to be confused with Irish Setters) at the "Proddie Scum" who were such a big-deal threat, to us.
The step after this was... burning the Proddie flags. I actually managed to set one poor guy's flag on fire, as he marched, and oh, the cheers that ensued bouyed me for weeks. Was he hurt? I hoped he was -- just Proddie scum, you see. Deserving of death by fire, for no other reason than he was prod. I became semi-famous, for a while -- the little girl who burned the Prod flag.
The next step, after burning Proddie flags was, for me... reading The Green Book, and wearing a black beret. I wasn't an official 'RA, obviously, but I was 'RA, in my heart. It seemed so... romantic. A freedom-fighter, The Cause, I was... enthralled.
I discovered how to make fertilizer bombs, and can tell you everything you need to know about N-P-K ratios. I can sing Wolfetones songs, and I play a bodhran like a pro(fessional).
And then, like a blessing from the Gods, along came the Band, "The Specials"... here's the lyrics, for your perusal, with the important-to-this-thread section highlighted in bold...
The Song goes...
"All you punks and all you teds
National Front and Natty dreads
Mods, rockers, hippies and skinheads
Keep on fighting 'till you're dead
Who am I to say?
Who am I to say?
Am I just a hypocrite, another piece of your bullshit?
Am I the dog that bit
The hand of the man that feeds it?
Do the dog (do the dog)
Do the dog (not the donkey)
Do the dog (don't be a jerk)
Do the dog (watch who you work for)
Do the-do the-do the-do the dog
Everybody's doing the dog
Take your F.A. aggravation
Fight it out on New Street Station
Master-racial masturbation
Causes National Front frustration
Who am I to say?
To the IRA
To the UDA
Soldier boy from the UK
Am I just a hypocrite, another piece of your bullshit
Am I the dog that bit
The hand of the man that feeds it?
Do the dog (do the dog)
Do the dog (not the donkey)
Do the dog (don't be a jerk)
Do the dog (watch who you work for)
Do the-do the-do the-do the dog
Do the-do the-do the-do the dog
Do the-do the-do the-do the dog
Everybody's doing the dog
And, there is is... We all collectively get fed some bullshit romantic notion, and we fall for it, and then, we make bombs and kill people. It doesn't matter whether we're infusing sarin gas in Tokyo subways, (like the cult Aum Shinrikyo), or killing pregnant film stars like The Manson Family did.
Islam is not a threat to the West: extremism is a threat to everyone.
Scum comes in all colours and flavours and isn't specific to Islam. If I'd been born in Ireland, at the right time, I would've been an IRA terrorist/Freedom Fighter, if they'd got me before I converted to "The Specials". I would have happily bombed Prods and felt totally justified in doing so and almost everyone in my family would've been so PROUD.
Would that be Islams fault? Oh no, sir, it would be the fault of a culture and society that STILL believes there is such a thing as "righteous killing" and "Holy War".
Maybe we need to bring "The Specials" back?
Is Islam a threat to the West?
Well, here's my take on it. I was raised a Catholic, in England, in the 1980's, and encouraged, by my Irish family, to HATE the Proddies. Proddies were scum, and the cause or all our catholic woes. We didn't mix with the Prods. We didn't have Prod friends. If an acquaintance revealed they were not Catholic, we never spoke to them again. That was how it was, back then.
The next step from this was.... throwing stones at the Orange Lodge when they marched. I remember being eight years old, with my Dad, hurling half-setters (not to be confused with Irish Setters) at the "Proddie Scum" who were such a big-deal threat, to us.
The step after this was... burning the Proddie flags. I actually managed to set one poor guy's flag on fire, as he marched, and oh, the cheers that ensued bouyed me for weeks. Was he hurt? I hoped he was -- just Proddie scum, you see. Deserving of death by fire, for no other reason than he was prod. I became semi-famous, for a while -- the little girl who burned the Prod flag.
The next step, after burning Proddie flags was, for me... reading The Green Book, and wearing a black beret. I wasn't an official 'RA, obviously, but I was 'RA, in my heart. It seemed so... romantic. A freedom-fighter, The Cause, I was... enthralled.
I discovered how to make fertilizer bombs, and can tell you everything you need to know about N-P-K ratios. I can sing Wolfetones songs, and I play a bodhran like a pro(fessional).
And then, like a blessing from the Gods, along came the Band, "The Specials"... here's the lyrics, for your perusal, with the important-to-this-thread section highlighted in bold...
The Song goes...
"All you punks and all you teds
National Front and Natty dreads
Mods, rockers, hippies and skinheads
Keep on fighting 'till you're dead
Who am I to say?
Who am I to say?
Am I just a hypocrite, another piece of your bullshit?
Am I the dog that bit
The hand of the man that feeds it?
Do the dog (do the dog)
Do the dog (not the donkey)
Do the dog (don't be a jerk)
Do the dog (watch who you work for)
Do the-do the-do the-do the dog
Everybody's doing the dog
Take your F.A. aggravation
Fight it out on New Street Station
Master-racial masturbation
Causes National Front frustration
Who am I to say?
To the IRA
To the UDA
Soldier boy from the UK
Am I just a hypocrite, another piece of your bullshit
Am I the dog that bit
The hand of the man that feeds it?
Do the dog (do the dog)
Do the dog (not the donkey)
Do the dog (don't be a jerk)
Do the dog (watch who you work for)
Do the-do the-do the-do the dog
Do the-do the-do the-do the dog
Do the-do the-do the-do the dog
Everybody's doing the dog
And, there is is... We all collectively get fed some bullshit romantic notion, and we fall for it, and then, we make bombs and kill people. It doesn't matter whether we're infusing sarin gas in Tokyo subways, (like the cult Aum Shinrikyo), or killing pregnant film stars like The Manson Family did.
Islam is not a threat to the West: extremism is a threat to everyone.
Scum comes in all colours and flavours and isn't specific to Islam. If I'd been born in Ireland, at the right time, I would've been an IRA terrorist/Freedom Fighter, if they'd got me before I converted to "The Specials". I would have happily bombed Prods and felt totally justified in doing so and almost everyone in my family would've been so PROUD.
Would that be Islams fault? Oh no, sir, it would be the fault of a culture and society that STILL believes there is such a thing as "righteous killing" and "Holy War".
Maybe we need to bring "The Specials" back?
Richard Pickett
Tazdog
Just curious? Do you still feel the same way about Protestants? Until the "Peaceful Muslims" take a more of a public stand against their extremist brethren, and take a greater stance with refugees and not depend on " The West" to take them, then I guess the view the West has towards them may to some extent be justified.
Richard Pickett
Tazdog
That is if Proddies = Protestants....
Sam Albion
akaFrancisKing:ViveLeRoi!
lol, of course not, Richard. Now some of my best friends are Protestants!
Richard Pickett
Tazdog
Being an Anglican lol that's good to hear..
The biggest threat to the west....
Is the west.
Is the west.