In considering the mystical and the material

Thomas

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In my view science and religion address aspects of the same reality. As such they are not necessarily exclusive, but they are their own distinct fields and proceed according to their own axioms. The empirical sciences, for example, do not make moral determinations, merely pragmatic ones. I disagree with the idea that science will one day explain everything, because that would mean everything reduced to the empirical and the mechanical. To paraphrase Oscar Wilde, we would end up at a place where man would know the measure of everything, and the meaning and value of nothing.

The contemporary idea of ‘progress’ (especially in the field of social or spiritual evolution) I believe to be profoundly flawed. The linear, mechanistic world view – never dreamed of by the ancients – appeared in the Newtonian west, and is becoming outmoded, despite its proponents like Richard Dawkins. It belongs in the same drawer as ‘flat earth’ theories (if such ever existed) and that latest piece of nonsense, creationism.

Nature is, to use a contemporary analogy, ‘cloud-like’ rather than ‘clock-like’. Not so much chaos theory, but rather nature is manifold in its interactions, rather than proceeding by ordered steps. Empiricism is a man-made methodology, and we can fool ourselves into thinking that nature proceeds empirically and can be explained empirically.

Empiricism is a very ‘male’ way of looking and would imprint on nature a very ‘male’ way of being … God preserve us from that!

For me body, mind, soul and spirit address different aspects or states of the one reality. They are not other realities, nor are they a reality and various intellectual abstractions therefrom. The spirit-matter dichotomy is a dualistic hangover from Greek philosophy and is applied too often, too easily and often erroneously to the holistic Biblical texts.

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On the question of God, when faced with the assertion that: ‘Your God doesn’t make sense’, then it doesn’t take me long to discover that the kind of God held in mind is not the kind of God I have in mine. Nor are right-wing fundamentalists the benchmark of Biblical interpretation, so why people reference them as being in any sense an authoritative source is beyond me. Most critics of the idea of a deity usually have some medieval concept in mind.

For me God is an ontological necessity, not a logical one. Logic can never prove nor disprove God.

The problem of evil is the most serious intellectual objection to the existence of a Biblical God, but it is not insoluble. The idea that God wills both good and evil is a logical fallacy, if we’re talking about the God of the Bible or, indeed, the Deity of the Greek philosophical tradition. The idea that evil is something God can do nothing about is equally erroneous. It’s a complex problem. Simple criticisms might sound infallible, but they are philosophically naive.

The question then devolves to is would the world be a better place if it was populated by human ‘automata’ who had no will as such, but are simply hard wired ‘to do the right thing’. A world in which the idea of the Good, the True and the Beautiful do not arise. Nor, I might suggest, would the arts, the sciences and the humanities beyond the necessary means of survival … Nor, in fact, would ‘ideas’, beyond the purely mechanical problems of existence.

But the fact of evil means one cannot be too glib in one’s assertions.
 
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On the nature of Christian Revelation:

The key for me was 'the rending of the veil of the temple' which happened at the moment of Christ's death on the Cross. Once I saw that, everything fell into place.

Christianity is, in effect, symbology actualised, so the idea of the God-Man is not an analogy, not a metaphor, not a myth. The Passion and the Resurrection actually happened in 'the material world' as it happened in 'the spiritual world', not as the fleshing-out of an eternal myth, but the myth enfleshed, a bodily reality in every sense of the term.

Such are miracles. They are not demonstrations of power, nor proofs for the disbelieving, nor just 'signs' as John calls them, or rather they are, it's just that people don't comprehend what the sign is pointing to: the marriage of the physical and the spiritual. So the NT miracles have their other-world analogous correspondences, they have their other-world metaphorical significance, but more than that, and necessarily so, they have their actuality, and in that actuality the two worlds are made one, and the metaphor becomes real. They happened. Did this require the revoking of the Laws of Nature? No. If you accept the notion of the God of the Bible, then the Higher transcends the lower and can conform the lower to Itself. Nothing bent, nothing broken ... just something through ...

So the veil of the temple was rent from top to bottom. And yes, it's an analogy that indicates the end of the old esoteric/exoteric divide (the veil carried an image of the Cosmos and what lay beyond it was the metacosmic). It works as a metaphor for the end of the soul/body, spirit/matter opposition ... but the veil was rent.

And the apex of it all, the Eucharist, the Mystery of the Mysteries.

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Definitely the line where we differ.... If miracles exist, if prayer works, it should be able to be proven by science (maybe not yet the how or the why) but the efficacy. I think we've shown (through science) there is power in faith (personally) and power in self healing (our bodies are amazing). And that most folks in the world do not understand the differences between coincidence, causation and correlation.

Acupuncture for instance....we don't have all the ins and outs of how it works..but through double blind studies we can see it does work. To the extent that some acupuncturists claim...not so much...but blocking/alleviating some pain...setting conditions for your body to heal...in some cases we've got data...

Of course that isn't spiritual, isn't supernatural....but that is my current understanding....none of it is...if it exists it is natural...we just don't understand the mechanics of it yet...
 
Yes Love is:
Full Definition of LOVE
1
a (1) : strong affection for another arising out of kinship or personal ties <maternal love for a child> (2) : attraction based on sexual desire : affection and tenderness felt by lovers (3) : affection based on admiration, benevolence, or common interests <love for his old schoolmates>

b : an assurance of affection <give her my love>
2
: warm attachment, enthusiasm, or devotion <love of the sea>
3
a : the object of attachment, devotion, or admiration <baseball was his first love>

b (1) : a beloved person : darling —often used as a term of endearment (2) British —used as an informal term of address
4
a : unselfish loyal and benevolent concern for the good of another: as (1) : the fatherly concern of God for humankind (2) : brotherly concern for others

b : a person's adoration of God
5
: a god or personification of love
6
: an amorous episode : love affair
7
: the sexual embrace : copulation
8
: a score of zero (as in tennis)
9
capitalized Christian Science : god
at love
:
holding one's opponent scoreless in tennis
in love
:
inspired by affection
Is there a particular definition you wish to discuss?
 
Nope. Not really. It was a simple question, a list of definitions is not really an answer.

I think science can't prove love, but I don't dismiss love on those grounds.
 
I believe science can see an emotional electro chemical hormonal response when someone is attracted to another...as well as when they are having sex (making love)

Science can also differentiate in a loving relationship and a dysfunctional family... I don't believe Science can prove G!d is love or love is G!d.

But as Miriam Webster provides 9-13 definitions for love, and we have umpteen definitions for G!d... in order to discuss particulars, the parameters are required.

We know as well currently science can't prove or disprove various versions or definitions of G!d, but I don't dismiss them on those grounds either.

nor do I think that this may one day have an answer that is within the realm of science...(just like not to long ago bacteria, atoms, quarks, wavicles weren't either)
 
OK. Anyway, I've stated my case, you don't see it ... no probs.
 
Lol... I do see your case, and appreciate your understanding... we simply differ... So much duality, so many unknowns have become known in our lifetimes... while on one hand we know more than we ever have...on the other hand that what we don't know is expanding at rate that exceeds our knowing... The things we know we don't know I believe we will know in the not to distant future....and by then we'll be working on the things we don't know that we don't know...
 
Lol... I do see your case, and appreciate your understanding... we simply differ...
Well that's one thing we agree on :)

... so many unknowns have become known in our lifetimes ...
I know. Science is awesome, I just don't accept that the empirical method is the last word on everything, nor that being able to quantify something determines its reality. The world is awesomer (new word?) than even science can say!

Then again, science is, after all, a human construct. It's a way of comprehending the world, of rendering it intelligible, so for that reason I don't accept it as the last word, nor the ultimate determining factor ... in fact, it's the world that proves science, not the other way round! :D
 
Science is awesome, I just don't accept that the empirical method is the last word on everything, nor that being able to quantify something determines its reality.

Absolutely so. Science was never created to do that. Science and the empirical method have evolved to resolve those parts of reality that can be solved by the empirical method. It can not do anything about concepts beyond that. Science cannot 'prove' love. It can explain the physiological processes, chemical and hormonal reactions that lead to the feeling we call love. Is that all there is to love though?

Then again, science is, after all, a human construct.

So is religion. ;)
 
Science cannot 'prove' love. It can explain the physiological processes, chemical and hormonal reactions that lead to the feeling we call love. Is that all there is to love though?
after discussing this with some psych guys, yes. Unfortunately it is. A chemical reaction in your brain caused by memories and ideas causeing said chemicals to be released by the brain. (I am going to leave this here, as going too much further will take an anatomical discussion into a religious one that is likely to upset some people)

So is religion. ;)
In your opinion :D. No way to prove it.
 
Well there is that.... about all religions eh?

I believe that is for today....in the not to distant future things will change.
I think you are searching for a truth you can't possibly understand within the realm of observation. that not too distant future has been that way for thousands of years. People have always tried to prove/disprove God/religion. The more you know the more you find you still have to learn.
 
So the NT miracles have their other-world analogous correspondences, they have their other-world metaphorical significance, but more than that, and necessarily so, they have their actuality, and in that actuality the two worlds are made one, and the metaphor becomes real. They happened. Did this require the revoking of the Laws of Nature? No. If you accept the notion of the God of the Bible, then the Higher transcends the lower and can conform the lower to Itself. Nothing bent, nothing broken ... just something through .

I have been reading and re-reading this paragraph multiple times, and it still makes not a lick of sense to me. The bottom line of what you are saying seems to be that the laws of nature were not broken, even though they were. And even though they were, they weren't because - - - well it is the 'because' that completely eludes me. Because God can break the rules of nature without breaking them is what I am getting out of this.
 
Our knowledge is increasing at an ever so rapid rate... In my life we went from paying through the nose for long distance on landlines to free international calls via internet, free long distance via cell.. from rudimentary flight to the moon and soon upper atmosphere around the world flight...we've found planets (and soon vegetation) in other solar systems... first cosmonaut popped a lot of bubbles... and who knows what will come next... proof or disproof of G!d, nailing down the origin of the universe, the origin of life on our planet...I see it all as likely.
 
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