God and the Illogical

Noumenon

Noumenon

I don't know anything for certain
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Does God have power over the illogical?
 
Noumenon said:
Does God have power over the illogical?
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If one believes God as "creator of everything", then that would include what we call logic.
So God makes the rules and can presumably change them.

We often live through illogical situations in our dreams. We wake up and say 'that's impossible', yet we experienced it.




And welcome to the forum from an occasional poster here.:)
 
Craz said:
If one believes God as "creator of everything", then that would include what we call logic.
So God makes the rules and can presumably change them.

We often live through illogical situations in our dreams. We wake up and say 'that's impossible', yet we experienced it.

And welcome to the forum from an occasional poster here.:)
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Thanks! Dreams are a great example of illogical experiences that I never considered... In researching this question on google I read CS Lewis wrote that God is only logical and can only operate within logic. Within Lewis' theory, questions about the illogical or nonsensical (i.e. can god create a rock he cannot lift?) are something God has nothing to do with and will never need answering.

But to me, if God has no control over the illogical, it presents to me as a shimmering glimmer of hope that there is an "occurance" that is not reliant on God. This is huge because it represents something that operates independently of the supposedly strongest force in the universe (and is therefore a progression that does not have to fear condemnation by God). This makes me happy for some reason. Perhaps it is in nonsense that we can truly be free of God (can you tell I've been reading Camus lol).

Please be ruthless and tear apart my argument, I want to know the fault in my thinking here.
 
Devils' Advocate said:
Hi and welcome. Could you clarify what it is you are asking? I'm not sure what you mean by 'power over the illogical'.
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see my reply to Craz, but to clarify I want to know if God has absolute power over all that exists and doesn't exist. It seems, based on the way God is portrayed (in my casual research of the bible) that He is all powerful. When it comes to the realm of paradoxes and nonsense and chaos, it seems that God (the Judeo-christian one at least) has the ability to "lift the veil" of chaos and reveal order but that he exists as purely logical.

How would you suggest I phrase this question?
 
Noumenon said:
Thanks! Dreams are a great example of illogical experiences that I never considered... In researching this question on google I read CS Lewis wrote that God is only logical and can only operate within logic. Within Lewis' theory, questions about the illogical or nonsensical (i.e. can god create a rock he cannot lift?) are something God has nothing to do with and will never need answering.

But to me, if God has no control over the illogical, it presents to me as a shimmering glimmer of hope that there is an "occurance" that is not reliant on God. This is huge because it represents something that operates independently of the supposedly strongest force in the universe (and is therefore a progression that does not have to fear condemnation by God). This makes me happy for some reason. Perhaps it is in nonsense that we can truly be free of God (can you tell I've been reading Camus lol).

Please be ruthless and tear apart my argument, I want to know the fault in my thinking here.
Click to expand...

Actually, I don't see your statement of position as an argument.
CS Lewis wrote "God is only logical and can only operate within logic." If it is true that God is limited by logic, then clearly God is not the 'highest'.
If it not true, then God can do anything , including changing logic.

I see your question as a particular instance of "Is God part of existence OR is existence part of God?" (possibly pantheism vs panentheism?)
 
Craz said:
Actually, I don't see your statement of position as an argument.
CS Lewis wrote "God is only logical and can only operate within logic." If it is true that God is limited by logic, then clearly God is not the 'highest'.
If it not true, then God can do anything , including changing logic.

I see your question as a particular instance of "Is God part of existence OR is existence part of God?" (possibly pantheism vs panentheism?)
Click to expand...

You are right about this being about pantheism, I was googling where Christians exactly drew the line of where God ends and our physical world starts. I came across this question posed to Creation Ministries International-
"
If God can do anything, then can He make a being more powerful than Himself?
"
http://creation.mobi/if-god-can-do-...-being-more-powerful-than-himself-omnipotence
Their reply was that God has no power over "nothing" simply because "nothing" does not exist. Further quoting CS Lewis (read the link for his quote).
It got me thinking: what is nothing? Is it greater than God?
Should I pray to nothing?
 
Noumenon said:
You are right about this being about pantheism, I was googling where Christians exactly drew the line of where God ends and our physical world starts. I came across this question posed to Creation Ministries International-
"
If God can do anything, then can He make a being more powerful than Himself?
"
http://creation.mobi/if-god-can-do-...-being-more-powerful-than-himself-omnipotence
Their reply was that God has no power over "nothing" simply because "nothing" does not exist. Further quoting CS Lewis (read the link for his quote).
It got me thinking: what is nothing? Is it greater than God?
Should I pray to nothing?
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For us humans 'nothing' does not exist, i.e outside existence.
If you believe that God created existence, then God must also be outside existence..which would include 'nothing'.
So, go ahead and pray to nothing? :cool:

Edited to add: If 'nothing' is outside existence, that doesn't mean it can hear prayers.
 
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Noumenon said:
Does God have power over the illogical?
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This question basically does not make sense. If God exists, the reality of of our physical existence reflects the attributes of God. God in essence would not be logical nor illogical. There could not be any contradictions between the nature of God and the nature of our physical existence. Human perceptions and thinking on the other hand may be illogical and logical.
 
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Noumenon said:
Does God have power over the illogical?
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You may like to consider what the writer of the Rig Veda says when pondering existence, it may ease the pain of not knowing :



The Creation Hymn of Rig Veda



There was neither non-existence nor existence then.
There was neither the realm of space nor the sky which is beyond.
What stirred?
Where?
In whose protection?
Was there water, bottlemlessly deep?

There was neither death nor immortality then.
There was no distinguishing sign of night nor of day.
That One breathed, windless, by its own impulse.
Other than that there was nothing beyond.

Darkness was hidden by darkness in the beginning,
with no distinguishing sign, all this was water.
The life force that was covered with emptiness,
that One arose through the power of heat.

Desire came upon that One in the beginning,
that was the first seed of mind.
Poets seeking in their heart with wisdom
found the bond of existence and non-existence.

Their cord was extended across.
Was there below?
Was there above?
There were seed-placers, there were powers.
There was impulse beneath, there was giving forth above.

Who really knows?
Who will here proclaim it?
Whence was it produced?
Whence is this creation?
The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.
Who then knows whence it has arisen?

Whence this creation has arisen
- perhaps it formed itself, or perhaps it did not -
the One who looks down on it,
in the highest heaven, only He knows
or perhaps He does not know.

http://www.shraddhananda.com/The_Poetry_of_Creation_Rig_Veda_Book_10_Hymn_129.html
 
shunyadragon said:
This question basically does not make sense.
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I agree. As the OP mentions, we think ourselves pretty clever by coming up with logical fallacies (is that the right term?) like 'the immovable force v the irresistible object' or 'a four-sided triangle' or 'can God make something so heavy He can't lift it' ... as opposed to logical paradox, like the Cretan Epimenides' comment 'all Cretans are liars' ...

shunyadragon said:
If God exists, the reality of of our physical existence reflects the attributes of God.
Click to expand...
Provisionally, in that God has no physical attributes ...

shunyadragon said:
God in essence would not be logical nor illogical.
Click to expand...
Quite.

shunyadragon said:
There could not be any contradictions between the nature of God and the nature of our physical existence.
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No contradictions, but significant differences, significant enough to make the comparison more unalike than like. Physical existence is finite, with all that term implies (spatio-temporal, relative, contingent, ephemeral, composite, dependent, at the level of individuality, not necessary).

shunyadragon said:
Human perceptions and thinking on the hand may be illogical and logical.
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Quite, but then that sets up the potential paradox between this and your assertions above it!
 
Don't know if this is relevant to the discussion or to the OP's question. I would suggest that 'nothing' does indeed exist. The universe is rapidly expanding in all directions. What is it expanding into? Space/time which includes all matter and energy is confined within the amount of space to which the universe has already expanded. If one could somehow reach the very edge of the universe, what would be beyond that point? Nothing.
 
I think your question begs a background reference as to which scriptures you are willing to take as evidence to your question. Most followers of the Abrahamics will say God is not of the creation, therefore Logic, Weakness, and Restraints aren't bounds for "Him". The Quran states that he is the creator of all that we know, which would include logic. If you are searching to find out "IF" there is a God, I'd say you have a lot more reading of source material before needing support of other people's work. The Quran and the Bible seem very clear on these topics, I'm sure the Hindu and Buddhist texts are as well.
 
I think you guys are reading more into my statement than is there. All I'm saying is, logic is a human concept used to determine what is and is not valid. It's based on man's limited understanding of the world around him. Not God's.
 
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