Who is Jesus (PBUH) Praying to in the Bible?

Re: #19

Hello Thomas!

Anachronism? Hardly. I referred to "Roman Christianity" only because the first Nicaea Council was convened by Constantine I, Emperor of Rome, for the primary purpose of establishing (what has been called) the first Christian Creed. I mentioned the second Nicaea Council because the first Creed simply did not satisfy the question of the Trinity. I felt the second Creed came closer to addressing the thread post. I 'cut to the chase' while not clarifying my use of the term "Roman Christianity". Of that, I plead guilty.
 
Anachronism? Hardly. I referred to "Roman Christianity" only because the first Nicaea Council was convened by Constantine I, Emperor of Rome, for the primary purpose of establishing (what has been called) the first Christian Creed.
Oh, OK, I see.

I only make the comment because "Roman Christianity" would misdirect most readers, who would assume Roman Catholicism, which occurs much, much later.

But what is 'Roman' about 4th century Christianity I'm not sure? The character of the Church and the Council was significantly Greek, and the doctrine put forward in the Creed, whilst common to the Church prior to the 4th century (Edict of Milan, etc.), so pre-Roman in that sense, and the theology was largely Alexandrian! I don't see any influence of 'Rome' or the 'Roman Empire' in the shape of the Church at this time. That began a few centuries later.

The sources of the original Creed are diverse, the Coptic Church holds that it was authored by Pope Athanasius I of Alexandria. Scholars favour it was the local creed as used at Caesarea (an important center of Early Christianity). J.N.D. Kelly sees as its basis a baptismal creed of the Syro-Phoenician family, related to (but not dependent on) the creed cited by Cyril of Jerusalem and to the creed of Eusebius.

The 'Roman' influence began to make itself felt from Constantinople. In the Early Church, the Patriarchy of Rome was seen as 'the first among equals', followed by Alexandria and Antioch, both of which were theological centres. Jerusalem was accorded superior status because the Pentecost Church was founded there, but it had diminished as a Christian centre and as a seat of learning. Constantinople was established as a separate Patriarchy, and assumed an importance to itself on the basis of its being the centre of the new Roman Empire. In time it managed to eclipse Jerusalem, Antioch and Alexandria, but its competition with Rome would increase on both sides until the schism at the turn of the millennium

The idea that Emperors dictated doctrine to the Church is refuted by the evidence. Quite the reverse, in fact.

The Eastern Emperors at Constantinople were the most significant players in the 'state v church' controversies, although the emperors never managed to over-rule the Church as they would have liked, and failed to prevent later schisms which contributed to the dissolution of the Roman Empire. The schism following the Council of Chalcedon, for example, saw Egypt separate from the wider Christian community, something the emperors would never have allowed had they they clout that some assume, and that alone is a clear indicator that during the 3rd-5th centuries the Emperors never successfully dictated doctrine to the Church. Even the kidnap, torture and death of Pope Martin I (of Rome) by Constantinople failed to bend the Church to imperial will.

So in that sense I still say 'Roman Christianity' as you declare it is misleading. The more accurate term would be Byzantine Christianity, indicating the Greek-speaking East.

I mentioned the second Nicaea Council because the first Creed simply did not satisfy the question of the Trinity. I felt the second Creed came closer to addressing the thread post. I 'cut to the chase' while not clarifying my use of the term "Roman Christianity". Of that, I plead guilty.
Well Jesus prays to the Father, not the Holy Spirit, and if we read Jesus' words, the Holy Spirit had yet to 'make an appearance' in that regard.

As for the question, Chalcedon was the Council on which it all turned, as this question was actually aired in the discussions, Chalcedon being the Council that dealt with the question of Christ's humanity and divinity.
 
I only make the comment because "Roman Christianity" would misdirect most readers, who would assume Roman Catholicism, which occurs much, much later.

I agree. I made up my on term and it was misleading.

Great post! One thing however - I am of the opinion that many years (65/75 years) before the Chalcedon Council was the second ecumenical Nicaea Council at which time the term Holy Spirit was inserted into the Creed. Seems to me the "fourth" Council, that being the Chalcedon Council, was the first declaration that Jesus had two Natures.
 
Isn't that really all you're doing here, challenging a core Christian belief, essentially saying Christianity is wrong?
Simply getting clarification. And stirring a pot to get people talking a bit, let outsiders know the forum isn't dead. I'm not saying anyone is wrong, simply questioning whether these statements or arguments of scriptural interpretation aren't more open ended than given credence in most discussions. As you can see, as these particular conversations go there is a certain "that can't be read any other way" to most of these arguments. And yet many people have read the Bible and come to other conclusions based on the same evidence. It has been stated before that most of us agree that what one brings into reading the Bible strongly influences what comes out. The OP of mine was simply asking who was he praying to, to which I have received: himself, Himself in another state, and from outside the boards a few off the wall answers of the Creator God (mind you this person believes he his Christian, but says there are 3 separate distinct Gods), and of course God.

Perhaps not to everyone's satisfaction, but the question has been answered. A few of our members have done their level best right here to do just that and quite eloquently I might add. You've chosen to scoff at those answers and dismiss the scripture they're based on. I can understand wanting to initiate member participation, but this isn't the way to do it. That's not interfaith.
Not to everyone's satisfaction, true, hence why these talks happen. They have tried to answer, but as conversations go, one points out some holes and asks how they will fill them. I've scoffed at nothing, I rather enjoy the discussion, I find it rather disconcerting that upon discussion it tends to be so defensive, as I believe a straight talk tends to lend itself to better understanding. Sorry you don't enjoy this conversation, I usually enjoy your input.

No, they never did as far as I know.
According to Exodus 4:22 all Israel is God's Child
22 Then say to Pharaoh, ‘This is what the Lord says: Israel is my firstborn son,

and Confirmed Jeremiah 31:9
They will come with weeping;
they will pray as I bring them back.
I will lead them beside streams of water
on a level path where they will not stumble,
because I am Israel’s father,
and Ephraim is my firstborn son.
Psalms 2 refers to David (PBUH) as God's son
7 I will proclaim the Lord’s decree:

He said to me, “You are my son;
today I have become your father.
Although I admit that some Christian churches claim this Psalm was referring to Jesus (PBUH)
Luke 3:37 clearly labels Adam (PBUH) as the son of God, and by Jewish traditions if this is true, then all sons of Adam(PBUH) are Sons of God, and if Adam (PBUH) is the father of all men, well I'm sure you can put this together.
Job 1 speaks of Angels as his children and Satan was among them.
2 Samuel 7:14 by almost all accounts refers to Solomon (PBUH) as a Son of God, although some also attribute it to Jesus (PBUH)
and Matthew 5:9
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
 
Simply getting clarification. And stirring a pot to get people talking a bit, let outsiders know the forum isn't dead. I'm not saying anyone is wrong....
Ok, fair enough. It's just that challenging a core Christian belief tends to give that impression. Be that as it may let me answer your question(s).

Who is Jesus praying to? He's praying to the Heavenly Father. His direct spiritual sire. I won't argue scripture in that regard, you either believe it or you don't, but I will say that the Christ prophecy is found in more than one religious tradition and for my money, Jesus is the bloke they're talking about.

So, is Jesus God? If we're splitting hairs no, but for all intent and purpose yes. To paraphrase Jesus, your Father is in Heaven and if you've seen me you've seen the Father. He and the Father are of one spirit, with the same attributes, acting on the same authority. He prayed during his time in the flesh in order to exercise that authority and to show us what could be accomplished in his name.

Does God in the flesh simultaneously existing with God in heaven amount to polytheism? Not to me, but then I have no trouble believing God could be in more than one place, in more than one form at the same time. He's God!

Luke 3:37 clearly labels Adam (PBUH) as the son of God, and by Jewish traditions if this is true, then all sons of Adam(PBUH) are Sons of God
My dad use to say, "We're all sons of God. Only, Jesus is a direct descendant, the rest of us were adopted!":D
 
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I agree. I made up my on term and it was misleading.
Fair enough.

I had a long discussion going with Juan2three here some while ago. He believed Christianity was largely a Constantine construct (that might be a tad unfair) and we discussed Nicea and the Early Church at some length.

My own view is that 'Roman Christianity' started to occur sometime after the 6th century. The Church was always tripartite in its administration. I think the bishop-priest-deacon pattern was established before the close of the Apostolic Era, but faced with the problem of being a global organisation, naturally followed the most successful pattern of global administration, the Roman Empire.

I would contend the Church then adopted a tad too much of the worldly pomp-and-circumstance of Rome... Not a doctrinal thing so much as a political thing ...

One thing however - I am of the opinion that many years (65/75 years) before the Chalcedon Council was the second ecumenical Nicaea Council at which time the term Holy Spirit was inserted into the Creed. Seems to me the "fourth" Council, that being the Chalcedon Council, was the first declaration that Jesus had two Natures.
You're right. I only highlight Chalcedon because that issued the definitive statement of the two natures which explains who/how Christ was praying to.
 
You're right. I only highlight Chalcedon because that issued the definitive statement of the two natures which explains who/how Christ was praying to.

With all due respect Thomas, can you expand on the idea of Christ's two natures? I'd like to hear your own take on this. Christ's humanity and divinity is often the subject of dispute ( which always seemed silly to me). Not being Christian I often see things from a different vantage point, but as for that it matters little. That is not to say I don't enjoy Christianity, I've enjoyed studying its history, especially the period of the desert fathers.
 
Hi Nasruddin –

I suppose my own take on this rests in my view of what Christianity is, and that is it is the spiritual actualised in the physical.

By which I mean the Revelation of Christianity is the Word of God made man. Not God speaking through a man, nor even God acting in/through a man (the various forms of 'possession' central to the Mystery Religions of the region) but God manifesting Himself as a man. The point here being that such being the case, if the God-man had all the omniscience and omnipotence of God, then the man, or rather the manifestation, would be illusory. If an angel or Djinn appears in human form, that form is illusory. (Some gnostic schools believed that Christ was actually a Divine illusion and only seemed to be a man — that kind of thing).

An authentic human nature cannot be or know as God is and knows, but God can manifest Himself through a human form, accepting the limitations inherent to that form ... so, as man, Jesus hungered, thirsted, suffered pain and doubt and unknowing ... because He took our condition upon Himself and remade it a viable spiritual entity.

So I would say the Incarnation is a symbol made actual, and in Christianity all the sacred symbols, the spiritual metaphors, are actualised because without that, then everything remains abstractions in the mental realms with no concordant actuality.
 
Thomas,

Very well explained, thank you. So then, in your view, are all of us of that same nature? Does the Divine operate through and as us with the inherent limitations, including a certain amnesia (apparently) about reality?
 
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