Tangent from the "Americans are ignorant of Religion Quiz" thread

[seattlegal]

The most dangerous duality for seekers is that of duality vs non-duality.

Agreed. Clinging to "oneness" and being aversive to "duality" is the very like/dislike perception bias that the Hsin Hsin Ming speaks of.

The only non-dual state is deep sleep, here the subject exists alone, consciousness is empty and so experience ceases.

I don't know about that. Dispassionate awareness seems to clear out the bias distortions, and "yet the universe appear before you." (again, from the Hsin Hsin Ming.)

Everything else is an object in consciousness, including sensations like hunger etc...

Many think the subject is our inner reality, but this is erroneous.

This subject is your Buddha nature.

...which can be awakened, as we are sentient beings. (Instead of deep sleep.)

 

[seattlegal]

Can it suffer?

Can it die?

These questions are only valid for the entity in consciousness...

Even notions like enlightenment or liberation become absurd.

Even the most out there mystical experience is just nothing...

These all depend on consciousness...

Which itself is temporary and dependent on you.

I wonder if you can understand?

Agreed. Clinging to any mystical experience or state of consciousness is known as Makyo in Zen.

 

[Francis Earl]

I would say that "completeness" is waaaaay overrated. Your mileage may vary.

You are seeking because of a sense of lack, the goal being to find wholeness...

If this is not so, what do you hope to accomplish?

Is it possible to know and understand my own mind? Sentient beings have a subjective mind that is somewhat separated from objective reality. This subjective mind is what makes sentient beings sentient.

You always know it, which shows you are not it.

The mind is not separate from reality at all, it wholly depends it.

I do care about my subjective mind, as I also honor other sentient beings who have their own subjective minds.

Why?

I want to understand the problem in order to resolve the bad habit. Why? Because I care.

Again, why? What is accomplished?

Like I said, sentient beings have subjective minds--which is what makes them sentient!

Fallacy, the mind is not sentient, it is more like a computer, just repeating what it has heard.

Look more closely at this, and know that the one looking is the sentience.

They certainly have an effect. Talking about them does help with understanding them, even if it is understanding that they propagate.

You say "certainly", but do they actually?

Perhaps briefly, while identified, they appear important.

Eventually, they will subside and you will not even remember they arose in the first place.

That is, unless you continue telling yourself the story which caused them to arise.

 

[Francis Earl]

I don't know about that. Dispassionate awareness seems to clear out the bias distortions, and "yet the universe appear before you." (again, from the Hsin Hsin Ming.)

If there is consciousness, there is the one that is conscious and what it is conscious of... which is a duality.

This is how consciousness functions, there is no getting around it...

...which can be awakened, as we are sentient beings. (Instead of deep sleep.)

It is a fallacious imagining...

It is not awakened at all, it is simply noticed that you are not anything else.

Usually, because of identification and the like, we are caught in other things...

"Awakening" simply means you recognize this is not really true...

You cannot be anything in consciousness...

You are the very awareness of even consciousness coming and going.

Many want it to be an event, but how can it be?

That event will be known, observed...

By something that doesn't change...

Something that knows all change.

Another translation of Buddha is "the one that knows"...

What is known? Everything else.

Since there is no space between the knower and itself, it is not possible to know it.

Hence duality arises, the unknowable has the possibility to know itself indirectly.

Deep sleep was only an example, that space has dropped.

It is so before birth and after death.

That alone is truth.

 

[Francis Earl]

How can it be anything else?

All else comes and goes.

 

[seattlegal]

You are seeking because of a sense of lack, the goal being to find wholeness...

If this is not so, what do you hope to accomplish?

Ending of suffering.

You always know it, which shows you are not it.

The mind is not separate from reality at all, it wholly depends it.

I do have my mindless moments, where autopilot kicks in and habits take over. I would like those habits to be skillful habits, rather than unskillful habits.

Why?

Because I appreciate the uniqueness of sentient individuals.

Again, why? What is accomplished?

Skillful habits will reap skillful results. Unskillful habits will reap unskillful results.

Fallacy, the mind is not sentient, it is more like a computer, just repeating what it has heard.

Look more closely at this, and know that the one looking is the sentience.

Here is where will have to agree to disagree.

You say "certainly", but do they actually?

Perhaps briefly, while identified, they appear important.

Eventually, they will subside and you will not even remember they arose in the first place.

That is, unless you continue telling yourself the story which caused them to arise.

You might want to go back to sleep. I want to awaken. To each their own.

 

[Francis Earl]

Ending of suffering

What causes you to suffer?

Have you considered that suffering is caused by the desire to uphold the sufferer?

I do have my mindless moments, where autopilot kicks in and habits take over. I would like those habits to be skillful habits, rather than unskillful habits.

These usually occur when we are lost in thought...

When we cease to be identified with mind, we are simply here.

Because I appreciate the uniqueness of sentient individuals.

Do you think this is caused by their thought processes?

I will suggest it is mind that makes us comply, killing authenticity due to programmed responses.

Skillful habits will reap skillful results. Unskillful habits will reap unskillful results.

This is not really an answer...

The ultimate result of all action is death.

Here is where will have to agree to disagree.

So you are not aware of your thoughts?

I don't understand why you are shutting down this inquiry wholesale?

You might want to go back to sleep. I want to awaken. To each their own.

I am suggesting the "I" cannot awaken...

That this recognition IS awakening.

 

[seattlegal]

If there is consciousness, there is the one that is conscious and what it is conscious of... which is a duality.

I am not hung up on seeing dualities everywhere. I follow the non-dual of dispassion regarding like/dislike. You however, seem to be quite passionate and aversite to dualities. (This is only my observation, for what it is worth.)

This is how consciousness functions, there is no getting around it...

Sure. I have no hang ups regarding relativity and consciousness. By getting an idea of cold, we also get an idea of not-cold. By understanding not-cold, we can get an understanding of cold. Subjective conceptual thinking to supplement sensory imput.

It is a fallacious imagining...

It is not awakened at all, it is simply noticed that you are not anything else.

Usually, because of identification and the like, we are caught in other things...

"Awakening" simply means you recognize this is not really true...

You cannot be anything in consciousness...

You are the very awareness of even consciousness coming and going.

Many want it to be an event, but how can it be?

That event will be known, observed...

By something that doesn't change...

Something that knows all change.

Another translation of Buddha is "the one that knows"...

What is known? Everything else.

Since there is no space between the knower and itself, it is not possible to know it.

Hence duality arises, the unknowable has the possibility to know itself indirectly.

Deep sleep was only an example, that space has dropped.

It is so before birth and after death.

That alone is truth.

Do you recognize that this as the very identification you are condemning?

 

[Francis Earl]

I am not hung up on seeing dualities everywhere. I follow the non-dual of dispassion regarding like/dislike. You however, seem to be quite passionate and aversite to dualities. (This is only my observation, for what it is worth.)

We are discussing something that makes such things very relevant.

It is impossible to understand the mind unless you understand its dual functioning.

Yet, when mind is understood, it is transcended... you recognize your distance from it.

This is why I am talking about it.

Do you recognize that this as the very identification you are condemning?

It is not, I have already discussed the absurdity of such notions...

How else to talk about it? I have even discussed this, conversation is necessarily dualistic.

I can freely use certain terms because they are meaningless to me.

They simply help conveying something I am trying to show you...

 

[seattlegal]

What causes you to suffer?

Mental hang-ups and physical emergencies.

Have you considered that suffering is caused by the desire to uphold the sufferer?

"clinging to a concept of self"

These usually occur when we are lost in thought...

When we cease to be identified with mind, we are simply here.

Try saying that when you are 24 hours into hard childbirth labor and your mind dissociates from the body!

Do you think this is caused by their thought processes?

I will suggest it is mind that makes us comply, killing authenticity due to programmed responses.

Comply to what?

This is not really an answer...

The ultimate result of all action is death.

All the more reason to use this life as an opportunity to grow and EVOLVE!

So you are not aware of your thoughts?

I don't understand why you are shutting down this inquiry wholesale?

I try to be aware of and appreciate my thoughts.

I am not the one who is discounting the miracle of sentience.

I am suggesting the "I" cannot awaken...

That this recognition IS awakening.

Keep on dreaming, then, what dreams may come.

 

[seattlegal]

We are discussing something that makes such things very relevant.

It is impossible to understand the mind unless you understand its dual functioning.

Was my previous statement regarding cold and not-cold insufficient?

Yet, when mind is understood, it is transcended... you recognize your distance from it.

This is why I am talking about it.

And that mind may be changed, transformed, and evolved.

It is not, I have already discussed the absurdity of such notions...

Keep on dreaming, then.

Fortune cookie wisdom: "Man who says it is impossible should not interrupt woman doing it."

How else to talk about it? I have even discussed this, conversation is necessarily dualistic.

Of course it is. That is the nature of communication.

I can freely use certain terms because they are meaningless to me.

Babble on, dude.

They simply help conveying something I am trying to show you...

Uh huh...what is that meaningless word that conveys the meaning, "do as I say, not as I do?"

 

[Francis Earl]

Mental hang-ups and physical emergencies.

No, pain and suffering are not the same...

Pain is inevitable, suffering is how you respond.

"clinging to a concept of self"

Yes, but there is not a single self within mind, it is constantly changing... here I have called the identification with suffering the sufferer.

Each of us plays many roles in our lives, each of these are vastly different, we become compartmentalized psychologically... this is often warranted, we cannot act the same with our boss as we do our best friend - at least ordinarily.

So, while in many ways it is practical, we must be mindful that all of these are dependent on us, they are not us.

Try saying that when you are 24 hours into hard childbirth labor and your mind dissociates from the body!

Is this so this moment?

It is something that happened and has passed...

I do not mean to demean the event, I am sure this was traumatic.

I only mean to emphasize that something that was there in this experience has come unchanging to this moment.

This is what is already awake in you.

These stories are your dream.

Comply to what?

Social conventions, laws... lots of things.

We desire to uphold some image of ourselves, and thus hold back our true selves.

All the more reason to use this life as an opportunity to grow and EVOLVE!

What you actually are cannot grow or evolve...

The point of dialogs that go to this depth is to release you from this whole mindset...

To let you finally be what you were intended to be.

Don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting changes will not come, they must, because change is the only evidence of the unchanging.

I try to be aware of and appreciate of my thoughts. I am not the one who is discounting the miracle of sentience.

Sentience is not your capacity to think.

Sentience is your capacity to know... including knowing thought.

I am not even suggesting thought is bad, I have to think to type.

I am merely trying to loosen your identification with mind.

It is a strange situation, can you imagine if you thought you were your hand?

Yet the mind is just another tool.

Keep on dreaming, then, what dreams may come.

Are you not the one dreaming, thinking that truth is somewhere other than here?

There is no where else, how can awakening happen there?

 

[Francis Earl]

Was my previous statement regarding cold and not-cold insufficient?

You tell me, it seems you are still very involved in your mental world?

And that mind may be changed, transformed, and evolved.

That mind is itself impermanent... what is accomplished?

Keep on dreaming, then.

Fortune cookie wisdom: "Man who says it is impossible should not interrupt woman doing it."

What are you doing?

Right now, you are avoiding an invitation to awaken because you think you know what it means.

Babble on, dude.

I think we may be about done, you are becoming offensive.

It means I have flared your ego, so nothing else can happen here.

I hope you have a good day

 

[seattlegal]

No, pain and suffering are not the same...

Pain is inevitable, suffering is how you respond.




Yes, but there is not a single self within mind, it is constantly changing... here I have called the identification with suffering the sufferer.

Each of us plays many roles in our lives, each of these are vastly different, we become compartmentalized psychologically... this is often warranted, we cannot act the same with our boss as we do our best friend - at least ordinarily.

So, while in many ways it is practical, we must be mindful that all of these are dependent on us, they are not us.

I would have to agree. One hallmark of narcissism is the failure to recognize and honor personal boundaries.

Is this so this moment?

It is something that happened and has passed...

I do not mean to demean the event, I am sure this was traumatic.

I only mean to emphasize that something that was there in this experience has come unchanging to this moment.

I do not project unchangableness onto any sentient being.

This is what is already awake in you.

These stories are your dream.

OK...

Social conventions, laws... lots of things.

I'm not one for upholding social conventions simply because they are social conventions. If a social convention is harmful or illogical, I reject it, and do my own thing instead.

We desire to uphold some image of ourselves, and thus hold back our true selves.

Not everyone wears masks all the time.

What you actually are cannot grow or evolve...

Please refer to the above fortune cookie wisdom. Thank you very much.

The point of dialogs that go to this depth is to release you from this whole mindset...

aka, brainwashing.

To let you finally be what you were intended to be.

I would like to be the one who decides that.

Don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting changes will not come, they must, because change is the only evidence of the unchanging.

Oh, so you do embrace relativism when it sits you!

Sentience is not your capacity to think.

Sentience is your capacity to know... including knowing thought.

I am not even suggesting thought is bad, I have to think to type.

I am merely trying to loosen your identification with mind.

It is a strange situation, can you imagine if you thought you were your hand?

Yet the mind is just another tool.

Of course the mind is a tool. It senses thoughts, just as the ears sense sound, the eyes sense light/darkness/colors/shapes/forms, etc, and so on with the other sensory consciousnesses.

Are you not the one dreaming, thinking that truth is somewhere other than here?

There is no where else, how can awakening happen there?

I have no idea what you are talking about here.

 

[seattlegal]

You tell me, it seems you are still very involved in your mental world?

Of course I am. I try to be mindful as often as possible.

That mind is itself impermanent... what is accomplished?

More than what has been accomplished with unchangingness. (just sayin')

What are you doing?

Right now, you are avoiding an invitation to awaken because you think you know what it means.

Are you certain of that? You are not me.

I think we may be about done, you are becoming offensive.

It's your own words. Own them.

It means I have flared your ego, so nothing else can happen here.

I hope you have a good day

Laters.

 

[Francis Earl]

I would have to agree. One hallmark of narcissism is the failure to recognize and honor personal boundaries.

You are still offended, please stop the discussion if you do not want to go further.

If you continue, please stop creating antagonism.

I'm not one for upholding social conventions simply because they are social conventions. If a social convention is harmful or illogical, I reject it, and do my own thing instead.

What I mean is this mental dialog about should and shouldn't, about possible ramifications, these sorts of things which are learned and cause us to hold back.

Not everyone wears masks all the time.

Generally, our masks are dropped around close friends... hence the example.

Please refer to the above fortune cookie wisdom. Thank you very much.

Why do you make statements like this?

Do you think I have said it for no genuine reason?

Do you think I am engaging you to impress you?

aka, brainwashing.

Well, yes... I wish to wash your brain of nonsense.

You view this negatively because you value the information you have gathered.

It has served no purpose.

I would like to be the one who decides that.

You want to decide whether to be yourself?

I am not suggesting how that looks... I am merely suggesting it isn't this.

Oh, so you do embrace relativism when it sits you!

The smiley shows you think you've made some stunning revelation...

You think I have some bias... but I am speaking to convey something, whatever helps I will use.

Of course the mind is a tool. It senses thoughts, just as the ears sense sound, the eyes sense light/darkness/colors/shapes/forms, etc, and so on with the other sensory consciousnesses.

Our notions of mind differ, for me, mind is merely the collection of thoughts...

I have used awareness and sentience to mean what you seem to mean by mind.

That which knows the mind is not the mind...

 

[Francis Earl]

Of course I am. I try to be mindful as often as possible.

I don't think you understand what mindful means...

It is actually the quality of being aware, sentient...

This is not what I'm asking, believing thoughts is exactly what is meant by maya.

I am suggesting you are very deeply involved in thoughts, which shows utter lack of mindfulness.

More than what has been accomplished with unchangingness. (just sayin')

And yet, ultimately nothing, for the very accomplisher is impermanent.

Are you certain of that? You are not me.

I think you are defending yourself too much to really see what I'm saying.

 

[Francis Earl]

By "mental world" is meant the beliefs your project onto the world that don't necessarily have anything to do with this moment.

Thoughts about the past, the future, all these concepts you use to perceive life.

None of them are actually true.

That isn't to say they are wholly invalid...

I believe there is a bathroom half way down the hall, this is experientially confirmed...

Yet, I don't need to go, so it is effectively irrelevant this moment.

 

[seattlegal]

You are still offended, please stop the discussion if you do not want to go further.

If you continue, please stop creating antagonism.

Quit making unsubstantiated allegations and I will quit refuting them.

What I mean is this mental dialog about should and shouldn't, about possible ramifications, these sorts of things which are learned and cause us to hold back.

Yes. I have questioned these cultural nomos since I was a child--bringing them into consciousness and examining them, holding onto the ones that are logical, and exposing the ones that are illogical.
wiki link to Nomos (sociology)

Generally, our masks are dropped around close friends... hence the example.

agreed

Why do you make statements like this?

To refute unsubstantiated claims such as this:

What you actually are cannot grow or evolve..

Do you think I have said it for no genuine reason?

I'm sure you had your reason.

Do you think I am engaging you to impress you?

Nope.

Well, yes... I wish to wash your brain of nonsense.

You generally have to apply the technique to yourself first, if you want to be credible.

You view this negatively because you value the information you have gathered.

I don't go blindly into brainwashing. I question and test a lot.

It has served no purpose.

Let me be the judge of that, m'kay?

You want to decide whether to be yourself?

I want to be able to steer how I evolve myself.

I am not suggesting how that looks... I am merely suggesting it isn't this.

I've already stated that I'm still a work in progress.

The smiley shows you think you've made some stunning revelation...

You think I have some bias... but I am speaking to convey something, whatever helps I will use.

You are doing a marvelous job conveying that you project unsubstantiated claims on others before checking to see if it might possibly be a psychological projection.

Our notions of mind differ, for me, mind is merely the collection of thoughts...

I have used awareness and sentience to mean what you seem to mean by mind.

That which knows the mind is not the mind...

Mind is one of the six sense-base consciousness that senses thoughts. (according to Buddhism)

 

[seattlegal]

I don't think you understand what mindful means...

It is actually the quality of being aware, sentient...

This is not what I'm asking, believing thoughts is exactly what is meant by maya.

I am suggesting you are very deeply involved in thoughts, which shows utter lack of mindfulness.

Would you mind posting some links as to exactly where you came up with this? Thank you in advance.

And yet, ultimately nothing, for the very accomplisher is impermanent.

Impermanence allows change and evolution to occur.

I think you are defending yourself too much to really see what I'm saying.

Then quit making unsubstantiated attacks, then, and set a good example yourself by listening.
Show me how it's done.