A question about sects

[farhan]

Btw, it is Allah whose through the prophets entrusted the Torah to the rabbis to protect it. Allah did not know better that they will corrupt it? Torah & Injil are Allah's Book, shouldn't the All Mighty Allah be able to protect them? If Allah failed several time, why not now too. In the same way, why do you think Quran is not corrupted too.

Verily, We did send down the Taurat (Torah) [to Musa (Moses)], therein was guidance and light, by which the Prophets, who submitted themselves to Allah's Will, judged the Jews. And the rabbis and the priests [too judged the Jews by the Taurat (Torah) after those Prophets] for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's Book, and they were witnesses thereto. Therefore fear not men but fear Me (O Jews) and sell not My Verses for a miserable price. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed, such are the Kafirun (i.e. disbelievers - of a lesser degree as they do not act on Allah's Laws). (Quran 5 44)

Why should Allah protect anything if he doesnt want to?

 

[RogerBao]

Arif,
So for 16:67, where Allah said fruits & its wine are his Sign, your interpretation is : fruit-> sign of good things, but wine ->it is a sign of evil things. So your claim is that it doesn't contradict 5:90 which says that drinking wine (on earth that is) is as sinful as shirk. Ok fine.
Now see verse 4: 43, it merely advises them not to pray when you're drunk. How can that be? Wine is shirk, that's it, whether you drunk or not is not the issue. Also only when you exceed your personal limit, you start rambling , otherwise you can be intoxicated and still know what you're uttering,so you still can pray.

O you who believe! Approach not As-Salat (the prayer) when you are in a drunken state until you know (the meaning) of what you utter, nor when you are in a state of Janaba, (i.e. in a state of sexual impurity and have not yet taken a bath) except when travelling on the road (without enough water, or just passing through a mosque), till you wash your whole body. And if you are ill, or on a journey, or one of you comes after answering the call of nature, or you have been in contact with women (by sexual relations) and you find no water, perform Tayammum with clean earth and rub therewith your faces and hands (Tayammum). Truly, Allah is Ever Oft-Pardoning, Oft-Forgiving. (Quran 4 43)

Btw , I forgot to quote (as below) the bungalow in heaven Allah will give you, where you lie on the couch while eating your turkey. Pls refer below the amended post. Anyway since you are in the 21st century, Allah may even surprise you with a smartphone & a large screen LED TV.

Allah in heaven is promising big breasted virgins, pearly boys, fruit, honey, milk, wine, clean water, gold bracelet, fine Persian silk (istabraq), mansion, couch, chicken meat & fine weather. These are nothing but enticement for the desert Bedoins of that time. (note: Istabraq is a luxury good of that time from Iran, its like God promising me Gucci today)

Allah hath promised to Believers, men and women, gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein, and beautiful mansions in gardens of everlasting bliss. But the greatest bliss is the good pleasure of Allah: that is the supreme felicity (Quran 9 72)

For them will be Gardens of Eternity; beneath them rivers will flow; they will be adorned therein with bracelets of gold, and they will wear green garments of fine silk ( transliteration: istabraq) and heavy brocade: They will recline therein on raised thrones. How good the recompense! How beautiful a couch to recline on! (Qur'an 18:31)

(Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)? (Qur'an 47:15)

Round about them will serve, (devoted) to them, young male servants (handsome) as Pearls well-guarded. (Qur'an 52:24)

In them will be (Maidens), chaste, restraining their glances, whom no man or Jinn before them has touched;- (Qur'an 55:56)

And full-breasted [companions] of equal age (Quran 78 33)

(They will be) on Thrones encrusted (with gold and precious stones), Reclining on them, facing each other. Round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness), With goblets, (shining) beakers, and cups (filled) out of clear-flowing fountains:No after-ache will they receive therefrom, nor will they suffer intoxication: And with fruits, any that they may select: (21)And the flesh of fowls, any that they may desire. And (there will be) Companions with beautiful, big, and lustrous eyes,- Like unto Pearls well-guarded. (Qur'an 56:15-23)

And because they were patient and constant, He will reward them with a Garden and (garments of) silk. (13)Reclining in the (Garden) on raised thrones, they will see there neither the sun's (excessive heat) nor (the moon's) excessive cold. And the shades of the (Garden) will come low over them, and the bunches (of fruit), there, will hang low in humility. And amongst them will be passed round vessels of silver and goblets of crystal,- Crystal-clear, made of silver: they will determine the measure thereof (according to their wishes). And they will be given to drink there of a Cup (of Wine) mixed with Zanjabil,- A fountain there, called Salsabil. And round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness): If thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered Pearls. (Qur'an 76:12-19)

 

[RogerBao]

Quran was both memorised and written. when one memorizes that much, there are chances of forgetting. None of these say they are no longer in the quran.
Where is the evidence of Uthman juggling verses?

Quran was was supposedly compiled partly from manuscripts leafs,leathers, tablets & part of the Quran was only in memory of the prophets scribes/companions/reciters. What ever forgotten by them is lost forever. Also the Quran you have now is entirely a recitation of a single person, Hafs who existed almost 200 year since the time of your prophet.

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:
Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people! of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found 'Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "Umar has come to me and said: "Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the! Qur'an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?"

... By Allah If they had ordered me to shift one of the mountains, it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Qur'an. Then I said to Abu Bakr, "How will you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" Abu Bakr replied, "By Allah, it is a good project." Abu Bakr kept on urging me to accept his idea until Allah opened my chest for what He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and 'Umar. So I started looking for the Qur'an and collecting it from (what was written on) palmed stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart ... - Bukhari, Book 6, vol 61, hadith 509

Even the written manuscripts, some were lost;

It was narrated that 'Aishah said:
“The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed1, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it."
1: These verses were abrogated in recitation but not ruling. Other ahadith establish the number for fosterage to be 5.
English reference : Vol. 3, Book 9, Hadith 1944 Sunan Ibn Majah » The Chapters on Marriage - كتاب النكاح

Regarding your prophet forgetting Quran verses, he could have also forgotten it before conveying to his scribes not necessarily only after. What's worst is, he could have misinformed some the verses as your prophet seem to have some psychological issues:

Narrated Aisha:
Once the Prophet (ﷺ) was bewitched so that he began to imagine that he had done a thing which in fact he had not done
Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 3175 Book of Jizyah and Mawaada'ah

 

[farhan]

Quran was was supposedly compiled partly from manuscripts leafs,leathers, tablets & part of the Quran was only in memory of the prophets scribes/companions/reciters. What ever forgotten by them is lost forever. Also the Quran you have now is entirely a recitation of a single person, Hafs who existed almost 200 year since the time of your prophet.

If you search google, you will find a lot more than just Hafs. And there is no evidence of aything getting forgotten.

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:
Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people! of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found 'Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "Umar has come to me and said: "Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the! Qur'an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?"

... By Allah If they had ordered me to shift one of the mountains, it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Qur'an. Then I said to Abu Bakr, "How will you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" Abu Bakr replied, "By Allah, it is a good project." Abu Bakr kept on urging me to accept his idea until Allah opened my chest for what He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and 'Umar. So I started looking for the Qur'an and collecting it from (what was written on) palmed stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart ... - Bukhari, Book 6, vol 61, hadith 509

He was afraid large part of Quran might get lost. This is not an evidence of Quran actually getting lost.

Even the written manuscripts, some were lost;

It was narrated that 'Aishah said:
“The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed1, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it."
1: These verses were abrogated in recitation but not ruling. Other ahadith establish the number for fosterage to be 5.
English reference : Vol. 3, Book 9, Hadith 1944 Sunan Ibn Majah » The Chapters on Marriage - كتاب النكاح

If you try google, you will find extensive discussions on this hadith. From its begining to its end.

Regarding your prophet forgetting Quran verses, he could have also forgotten it before conveying to his scribes not necessarily only after. What's worst is, he could have misinformed some the verses as your prophet seem to have some psychological issues:

Narrated Aisha:
Once the Prophet (ﷺ) was bewitched so that he began to imagine that he had done a thing which in fact he had not done
Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 3175 Book of Jizyah and Mawaada'ah

Well could have, would have, should have, might have......etc, is no evidence.

 

[Arif Ghamiq]

Roger - what I'm saying is that the ayaah (verse) says the fruits and dates are Ayaat (Signs) not the things derived from them, but bad/evil things can be signs too, as with Pharoah (10:92) which I quoted before - so even if it did, there would be nothing wrong with it. It's just not being done in 16:67 in my view.

Nothing is as bad as Shirk

In Surah 5:90 - wine, and the other things mentioned, are called Rijs (unclean, foul, filth, crime). They are not called Shirk, and they are not compared to Shirk.

Shirk is in a class by itself, it stands alone, nothing is as bad as Shirk:

"Indeed Allah does not forgive committing Shirk with Him, but He forgives besides that whomsoever He wills; and whoever commits Shirk has committed a great Ithm (Iniquity, Harm, Sin)"
(4:48)

"Indeed Allah does not forgive committing Shirk with him, but He forgives besides that whomsoever He wills; and whoever commits Shirk has indeed strayed far away."
(4:116)

Not only can bad/evil things be Ayaat (Signs) but things are often not evil or good in an absolute sense.

"They ask you concerning wine and games of chance (gambling); Say, in both there is great harm/sin and also benefit for people, but their harm/sin is greater than their benefit. And they will ask you as to what they will spend (Alms); Say, whatsoever can be spared. Thus does Allah make clear for you His Ayaat (Signs) so that Tatafakkarun (You may Ponder, Reflect)"
(2:219)

The Quran and the Religion of Islam was revealed to humankind in stages (17:106). The obligations and prohibitions were implemented slowly.

During the first period of the Prophetic Mission, Muslims were doing three prayers daily and later - after the Qiblah (Direction faced in Salah) was changed - five prayers daily were implemented. This also applied to certain prohibitions - such as drinking wine - the Arabs were extreme alcoholics, to suddenly stop drinking and start praying five prayers everyday would have been a great difficulty.

Alcoholism was virtually erased in Arabia within a 23 year period by this method.

This gradual implementation of obligations and prohibitions is a manifestation of Allah's Mercy and Wisdom - not evidence of contradiction.

Allah is Ar-Raheem (Most Merciful)

Al Hakeem (The Most Wise)

 

[SufiPhilosophy]

Specifically, what are the similarities and the differences between Sunni and Sufi Muslims?

I apologize if this question has already been answered, but I'm honestly curious, and thank you for your time.

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

Hello, as a Sufi l believe l can answer:

1. Sufism isn't a sect within Islam. In fact there have been Christian Sufis (e.g. recently Kahlil Gibran), Jewish Sufis (e.g. Maimonides, Ibn Gabirol, Ibn Falah l think, plus l'm sure the Hassids took their cue from Islamic Sufism, they certainly quoted it in at least one hassidic work), Zoroastrian Sufis (e.g. Kaikhusraw Isfandiyar, supposed author of the Dabestan al Mazaheb, a brilliant book on the religious sects of India, a real eye opener, way different to the India we know today), even Hindu Sufis (e.g. Kabir, and various Sufis mentioned in the Dabestan).

2. A Muslim Sufi of either gender can marry a Muslim non-Sufi of the opposite gender

3. A Muslim Sufi can have non-Sufi Muslim parents or offspring and not consider it a problem

4. A Muslim Sufi will never consider themselves better than a Muslim non-Sufi.

5. Sufism has no law, no formal doctrines (regardless what Wikipedia may say, let me have my say here), so how can it be a religion or a sect within a religion?

Therefore Sufism isn't an Islamic sect, it is more a spiritual focus within Islam. In fact studying Sufism used to be part of the standard educational curriculum in Islamic lands.

Btw l'm well aware that some would say self declaration of a Sufi nullifies that declaration. However l recommend people avoid bouncing their edicts off a condemnation of this or that person's very fake Sufism, not-good-enough Sufism and their downright badness as Muslims. On the day of Judgement, we'll be naked but won't even notice each other because we'll be so terrified of the imminent interview with God, where it's 1 on 1.

Hi
Please let me try to answer your Question ,,
Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)didn't call for sufism , he sent to give peoples clearly message from Allah . As muslims prophet mohammad give us lessons on how we can worship Allah , with Five Pillars of Islam . Sufi uses new ways of worship were not from the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him .

The word “Sufism” was not known at the time of the Messenger or his friends( the Sahaabah) .
Sufism has numerous branches or tareeqahs, such as the Teejaniyyah, Qaadiriyyah, Naqshbandiyyah, Shaadhiliyyah, Rifaa’iyyah, etc., the followers of which all claim that their particular tareeqah is on the path of truth whilst the others are following falsehood. Islam forbids such sectarianism. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“… and be not of al-mushrikoon (the disbelievers in the Oneness of Allaah, polytheists, idolaters, etc),

Of those who split up their religion (i.e., who left the true Islamic monotheism), and became sects, [i.e., they invented new things in the religion (bid’ah) and followed their vain desires], each sect rejoicing in that which is with it.” [al-Room 30:31-32]

The Sufis worship others than Allaah, such as Prophets and “awliya’” [“saints”], living or dead. They say, “Yaa Jeelaani”, “Yaa Rifaa’i” [calling on their awliya’], or “O Messenger of Allaah, help and save” or “O Messenger of Allaah, our dependence is on you”, etc.

But Allaah forbids us to call on anyone except Him in matters that are beyond the person's capabilities. If a person does this, Allaah will count him as a mushrik, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And invoke not, besides Allaah, any that will neither profit you, nor hurt you, but if (in case) you did so, you shall certainly be one of the zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers).” [Yoonus 10:106]

The Sufis believe that there are abdaal, aqtaab and awliya’ (kinds of “saints”) to whom Allaah has given the power to run the affairs of the universe. Allaah tells us about the mushrikeen (interpretation of the meaning):

“Say [O Muhammad]: ‘…And who disposes the affairs?’ They will say. ‘Allaah.’…” [Yoonus 10:31]

The mushrik Arabs knew more about Allaah than these Sufis!

The Sufis turn to other than Allaah when calamity strikes, but Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And if Allaah touches you with harm, none can remove it but He, and if He touches you with good, then He is Able to do all things.” [al-An’aam 6:17]

Some Sufis believe in wahdat al-wujood (unity of existence). They do not have the idea of a Creator and His creation, instead they say that everything is creation and everything is god.

The Sufis advocate extreme asceticism in this life and do not believe in taking the necessary means or in jihaad, but Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“But seek with that (wealth) which Allaah has bestowed on you, the home of the Hereafter, and forget not your portion of legal enjoyment in this world…” [al-Qasas 28:77]

“And make ready against them all that you can of power…” [al-Anfaal 8:60]

The Sufis refer the idea of ihsaan to their shaykhs and tell their followers to have a picture of their shaykh in mind when they remember Allaah and even when they are praying. Some of them even put a picture of their shaykh in front of them when they are praying. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Ihsaan is when you worship Allaah as if you can see Him, and although you cannot see Him, He can see you.” (Reported by Muslim).

The Sufis allow dancing, drums and musical instruments, and raising the voice when making dhikr, but Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“The believers are only those who, when Allaah is mentioned, feel a fear in their hearts…” [al-Anfaal 8:2]

Moreover, you see some of them making dhikr by only pronouncing the Name of Allaah, saying, “Allaah, Allaah, Allaah.” This is bid’ah and has no meaning in Islam. They even go to the extreme of saying, “Ah, ah” or “Hu, Hu.” The Sunnah is for the Muslim to remember his Lord in words that have a true meaning for which he will be rewarded, such as saying Subhaan Allaah wa Alhamdulillah wa Laa ilaaha illa Allaah wa Allaahu akbar, and so on.

The Sufis recite love poems mentioning the names of women and boys in their dhikr gatherings, and they repeat words such as “love”, “passion”, “desire” and so on, as if they are in a gathering where people dance and drink wine and clap and shout. All of this has to do with the customs and acts of worship of the mushrikeen. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Their salaah (prayer) at the House (of Allaah, i.e., the Ka’bah at Makkah) was nothing but whistling and clapping of hands…”

[al-Anfaal 8:35]

Some Sufis pierce themselves with rods of iron, saying, “O my grandfather!” So the shayaateen come to them and help them, because they are seeking the help of someone other than Allaah . Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And whosoever turns away (blinds himself) from the remembrance of the Most Beneficent (Allaah), We appoint for him a shaytaan (devil) to be a qareen (intimate companion) for him.”

[al-Zukhruf 43:36]

The Sufis claim to have gnosis and knowledge of the unseen, but the Qur’aan shows them to be liars. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Say: ‘None in the heavens and the earth knows the ghayb (unseen) except Allaah…’” [al-Naml 27:65]

The Sufis claim that Allaah created the world for the sake of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), but the Qur’aan shows them to be liars. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And I (Allaah) created not the jinns and humans except they should worship Me (Alone).” [al-Dhaariyaat 51:56]

Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted, addressed His Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) with the words (interpretation of the meaning):

“And worship your Lord until there comes unto the certainty (i.e., death).” [al-Hijr 15:99]

The Sufis claim that they can see Allaah in this life, but the Qur’aan shows them to be liars. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“[Moosa said:] ‘O my Lord! Show me (Yourself), that I may look upon You.’ Allaah said, ‘You cannot see Me…’” [al-A’raaf 7:143]

The Sufis claim that they take knowledge directly from Allaah, without the mediation of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and in a conscious state (as opposed to dreams). So are they better than the Sahaabah??

The Sufis claim that they take knowledge directly from Allaah, without the mediation of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). They say, “Haddathani qalbi ‘an Rabbi (My heart told me from my Lord).”

The Sufis celebrate Mawlid and hold gatherings for sending blessings on the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), but they go against his teachings by raising their voices in dhikr and anaasheed (religious songs) and qaseedahs (poems) that contain blatant shirk. Did the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) celebrate his birthday? Did Abu Bakr, ‘Umar, ‘Uthman, ‘Ali, the four imaams or anyone else celebrate his birthday? Who knows more and is more correct in worship, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and the Salaf, or the Sufis?

The Sufis travel to visit graves and seek blessings from their occupants or to make tawaaf (ritual circumambulation) around them or to make sacrifices at these sites, all of which goes against the teachings of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Do not travel to visit any place but three mosques: al-Masjid al-Haraam [in Makkah], this mosque of mine [in Madeenah] and al-Masjid al-Aqsa [in Jerusalem].” (Agreed upon).

The Sufis are blindly loyal to their shaykhs, even when what they go against the words of Allaah and His Messenger. But Allaah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O you who believe! Do not put (yourselves) forward before Allaah and His Messenger…” [al-Hujuraat 49:1]

The Sufis use talismans, letters and numbers for making decisions and for making amulets and charms and so on.

The Sufis do not restrict themselves to the specific blessings on the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) that were narrated from him. They invented new formulas that involve seeking his blessings and other kinds of blatant shirk which are unacceptable to the one on whom they are sending blessings.

With regard to the question of the whether the Sufi shaykhs have some kind of contact, this is true, but their contact is with the shayaateen, not with Allaah, so they inspire one another with adorned speech as a delusion (or by way of deception), as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And so We have appointed for every Prophet enemies – shayaateen (devils) among mankind and jinns, inspiring one another with adorned speech as a delusion (or by way of deception). If your Lord had so willed, they would not have done it…” [al-An’aam 6:112]

And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“… And, certainly, the shayaateen (devils) do inspire their friends (from mankind)…” [al-An’aam 6:121]

“Shall I inform you (O people!) upon whom the shayaateen (devils) descend?

They descend on every lying, sinful person.” [al-Shu’ara 221-222]

This is the contact that is real, not the contact that they falsely claim to have with Allaah. Exalted be Allaah far above that. (See Mu’jam al-Bida’, 346 –359).

When some of these Sufi shaykhs disappear suddenly from the sight of their followers, this is the result of their contact with the shayaateen, who may even carry them to a distant place and bring them back in the same day or night, to mislead their human followers.

So the important rule here is not to judge people by the extraordinary feats that they may do. We should judge them by how closely or otherwise they adhere to the Qur’aan and Sunnah. The true friends of Allaah (awliya’) are not necessarily known for performing astounding feats. On the contrary, they are the ones who worship Allaah in the manner that He has prescribed, and not by doing acts of bid’ah. The true awliya’ or friends of Allaah are those whom our Lord has described in the hadeeth qudsi narrated by al-Bukhaari in his Saheeh (5/2384) from Abu Hurayrah, who said:

The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah said, ‘Whoever shows enmity towards a friend (wali) of Mine, I declare war against him. My slave does not draw close to Me with anything more loved by Me than the religious duties that I have enjoined on him, and My slave continues to draw close to Me with supererogatory (naafil) acts, so that I will love him. When I love him, I am his hearing with which he hears, his seeing with which he sees, his hand with which he strikes and his foot with which he walks. Were he to ask [something] of Me, I would surely give it to him, and were he to ask Me for refuge, I would surely grant him it.’”

And Allaah is the Source of Strength and the Guide to the Straight Path.

https://islamqa.info/en/4983

Dear Sir, your signature invites us to give good arguments. However, your post is full of false statements about Sufis and it is better to not make such accusations. Please see Point 5 in my reply to the OP, above.

 

[stranger]

Btw l'm well aware that some would say self declaration of a Sufi nullifies that declaration. However l recommend people avoid bouncing their edicts off a condemnation of this or that person's very fake Sufism, not-good-enough Sufism and their downright badness as Muslims. On the day of Judgement, we'll be naked but won't even notice each other because we'll be so terrified of the imminent interview with God, where it's 1 on 1.

Hi there Sufi, I hope by naked you mean without a body, just a bare soul? If that is the case, meaning after the death of the body and all desires connected with it, then I welcome it with open arms. In fact I can hardly wait.

 

[SufiPhilosophy]

Hi there Sufi, I hope by naked you mean without a body, just a bare soul? If that is the case, meaning after the death of the body and all desires connected with it, then I welcome it with open arms. In fact I can hardly wait.

Hi there, here's my impression: there will be some kind of physicality in the hereafter. Moreover, l'm unsure how the physicality of the resurrection before the judgement session relates to the physicality after the judgement.

I mean, if a person is going to heaven, their forms will be perfected, but l don't think they will look like that immediately after resurrection, l think these forms would be assigned after the actual judgement. That meeting with God is the most important thing after all.


When l say you'll be terrified and won't notice other naked people nor even your own nakedness, that is what l've read and l personally can't see anything pretty about it. The meeting with God is unprecedented. I'm sure you have a gameplan for that meeting, l see the rudiments of it already. I wish you well. Byeeee.

 

[stranger]

Hi there, here's my impression: there will be some kind of physicality in the hereafter. Moreover, l'm unsure how the physicality of the resurrection before the judgement session relates to the physicality after the judgement.

I mean, if a person is going to heaven, their forms will be perfected, but l don't think they will look like that immediately after resurrection, l think these forms would be assigned after the actual judgement. That meeting with God is the most important thing after all.


When l say you'll be terrified and won't notice other naked people nor even your own nakedness, that is what l've read and l personally can't see anything pretty about it. The meeting with God is unprecedented. I'm sure you have a gameplan for that meeting, l see the rudiments of it already. I wish you well. Byeeee.

No game plan really, it's just can anything be worse than this? I think we are very reluctant to let go of the human form and that's why in Christianity we have Christ appearing in human form but he could walk through walls and so forth. It's to help us through the transition. But really I can't imagine anything worse than being chained to a human form throughout eternity. Just absolutely terrifying to me.

 

[SufiPhilosophy]

No game plan really, it's just can anything be worse than this? I think we are very reluctant to let go of the human form and that's why in Christianity we have Christ appearing in human form but he could walk through walls and so forth. It's to help us through the transition. But really I can't imagine anything worse than being chained to a human form throughout eternity. Just absolutely terrifying to me.

Hi there, l don't think you're fully reading my sentences. I'll just recap the 2 main stumbling points so far, but l really don't want to digress, as this is about Sufism as a sect and not your no-likey this whole islam business:

1. The final judgement will be so terrifying we'll forget our own nakedness, so we need not dwell too much on the imperfections of sufis that we deem not good enough. Your stumbling point: you will love the judgement, finally being freeee of body.

My final response: l did not say we will be free of body, l said opposite. Also, l said it will be terrifying, l didn't ask if it would be terrifying? According to our beliefs it will be. Your beliefs may differ, because you are not of our belief. So, if you are implacably rejecting our beliefs on this matter, then l don't know why you are here?


2. If we go to heaven, our forms will be perfected. Not imperfect. Perfection is the opposite.

My final response: Again, l didn't ask if we would be perfect? I didn't say we would be chained to imperfect forms in heaven. I honestly don't know how you could miss what l've written. Your beliefs may differ. Maybe you dislike perfect forms. Maybe you want to be a motorised eagle. But l am just talking about my religion's ideas. Your beliefs may differ, because you are not of our belief. So, if you are implacably rejecting our beliefs on this matter, then l don't know why you are here?


Please could we leave it at that, as the topic was about Sufism as a sect, to which l gave a long reply which l am worried you will push off the page before anybody gains insight from what l wrote. Please, l will not bother you on your religion's subforum and if l visit there, l will be respectful and integrate feedback to my contrary views. Please, do the same.

 

[marceltr]

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