Blame and forgiveness

wil

wil

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We all know that forgiveness is not about others but oucellves..

We are the ones affected when we forgive.

But blame...if we quit blaming others for our feelings or perceived offences...we can eliminate the need to forgive.
 
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wil said:
We all know that forgiveness is not about others but ourselves.
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Don't see it. Can you explain? What about those we offend?

wil said:
But blame...if we quit blaming others for our feelings or perceived offences...we can eliminate the need to forgive.
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No, don't see it.

You prefix with 'perceived', which is a very slippery term. Can you explain it when its not 'perceived' but 'actual'?
 
If you slighted me in some way, borrowed money and didn't lay it back, called me name that I chose to let hurt my feelings, punched me in my nose....

Anything that grinds in my mind. When I think of you or the incident I am irritated. When I see you it dominates my mind, raises my blood pressure. When I read your post I read it with a worse intent than reality.

When I choose to move on, get over it, forgive you.... You aren't even around, you don't even know it happened. I just made a choice.

And when I do that I am freed, thinking of you no longer makes my blood boil. Seeing you doesnt bring up the old wound. Forgiveness is for my psyche, my wellbeing, not yours, you could care less...

Perceived....often the one we are blaming doesn't even know they did anything...

Take road rage... The person who accelerates when they see a turn signal, gets mad when someone passes them. Gets furious when someone cuts them off.

Nobody cuts YOU off, they don't know you...they simply missed their exit and need to get over, they are late for work, an appointment or they just drive fast and are bobbing and weaving thru traffic...

Has nothing to do with you...unless you decide to make it so. I've seen people come into the office ranting about how they were slighted on the way to work...and still bitching at lunch.... Reliving an issue hours later... They chose blame, they chose to have their pituitary and pineal glands spew toxic chemicals into their body, they chose to have a negative reaction to....spilt milk.

Blame, what if instead when you saw that car zooming you just let off the gas and thought... "I hope you get where you are going safely"...

I got to watch this repeatedly as a kid. My grandma would get furious and drive faster than everyone... But when my grandpa drove and someone "cut him off", or honked while he was already 5 over the limit in the fast lane, he'd simply move over and as they flew by, wave, and say " tell them we are.coming when you get there"

Choices.
 
Why Wil, that was actually understandable! And an awesome insight that most people never seem to get. To their loss. I don't hold grudges for selfless reasons; rather for selfish reasons. The more I grind away in my head about a wrong done to me the more I am harming myself! Don't like harming myself. So I don't do that. See? Selfish.
 
It is amazing that folks choose to hold grudges, choose to be angry at someone for something in the past.

It means you have given over your power, released control of your emotions and thoughts to them. Why? If you are uoaer with them why give them the control.

This is where logic and common sense, medical science meet a spiritual principle.
 
Much of it involves an ability to completely let go.

Givin the impermanent nature by which all things rise and fall, blame and forgiveness should naturally become as transcendent as those impulses by which we direct blame and forgiveness directly.
 
Yes, it was the homily was getting at that I've repeated here before, that life is like a game of 'pass the parcel' in reverse, where we wrap our dissatisfactions around experience and offload them onto someone else.
 
Let's not overlook the immense power of the forgiveness of others ... I for one know that forgiveness of others is no less important, and looking back, I don't see Wil's as 'forgiveness of self' so much as the forgiveness of self, but the forgiveness of the other by which one frees oneself.
 
It is a tough one. Something we need to do to move forward...

It seemed like a good idea at the time...

The thing is.... The old forgive 7x70... I get away with that by not giving others the opportunity to get me again.

I don't know how to do that for myself. Wherever I go, there I am.

Mostly I look at my collection of mistakes over the course of my life...

And then I look at all the things I have done, all the people I love, all the lovely encounters... 90% of which would not, could not have happened without the plethora of foibles...
 
Forgiving oneself is one of the harder ones. Mostly we are raised that we should be ashamed of our misdeeds. That we should mire ourselves in guilt over every single little thing we have ever done wrong.

That is all Bullturds!

Forgiving oneself makes for a healthy person. This is someone who understands that they are not, and can not, ever be perfect. Striving for the perfect 'anything' is a fool's errand. We are imperfect beings. As long as we are doing our best to be a decent member of society, that is good enough and part of that is cutting ourselves some slack and forgiving ourselves for being imperfect.
 
It's all a matter of balance, isn't it?

This one's a biggie because we live in such an ego-oriented culture, I wonder if this fixation with selfhood is a carry-over from the extended adolescence of the 'teenager' phenomenon post WWII.

I'd say the first step in 'forgiving oneself' is getting over oneself. Social media and selfie culture provides ample evidence of that, an over-weening sense of self-importance and self-interest.

The cardinal virtues are a good rule-of-thumb practice, and their contraries the things to look out for?

And by the very nature of the beast, our self-views are too subjective to be reliable, hence anam cara, soul-mate, etc. and for those wishing to go further, the necessity of the guru, staretz, director, etc.
 
I knew you were going to say that. :D Okay, in the sense that, in most instances, you do see a need for an extended structure of some kind. You don't trust the 'self'. And I don't disagree with you to a point. Choosing one's self as the guide can lead to ego 'trumping' honesty (has there ever been more need of that term than in the world today?).

Does that mean it is not possible to be honest enough with oneself to know the difference between ego and conscience? To know one forgives oneself for the right reasons and not the wrong ones? I propose that a person with an inner moral conscience and a dedication to self honesty can accomplish what I am talking about. One proof of success is the reputation you have in public. People know when someone is dissembling and when they are being straight. It is easy to see if one is willing to look.

The other point I would make is that having the backing of persons or organizations (of whatever kind) standing in for you conscience is hardly foolproof. We need to but look around to see people who have an organizational support system that should set them right that does nothing of the sort.

I would suggest that whether one depends on the self or the group, success is more about the honesty of the individual, to see one's self as you truly are and not some egocentric falsehood. Without the will to be brutally honest with oneself, where one gets their guidance is irrelevant.

Very interested in your thoughts on this, Thomas.
 
Hi DA —
Devils' Advocate said:
I knew you were going to say that. :D Okay, in the sense that, in most instances, you do see a need for an extended structure of some kind. You don't trust the 'self'. And I don't disagree with you to a point. Choosing one's self as the guide can lead to ego 'trumping' honesty (has there ever been more need of that term than in the world today?).
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Let me assert I'm not talking about our normal daily lives here, I'm talking about undertaking a spiritual quest within the context of a given tradition, so not the normal day-to-day ...

Devils' Advocate said:
Does that mean it is not possible to be honest enough with oneself to know the difference between ego and conscience?
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No, I think that's possible.

Devils' Advocate said:
To know one forgives oneself for the right reasons and not the wrong ones?
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Absolutely possible. 'Self-forgiveness' is tricky in itself, though, isn't it? I can recall toe-curlingly embarrassing moments from my past, and as much as I can laugh and call myself a muppet, and a muppet for still having a reaction, the reaction is still there, even though the 'content' of the event has evaporated.

Devils' Advocate said:
I propose that a person with an inner moral conscience and a dedication to self honesty can accomplish what I am talking about. One proof of success is the reputation you have in public. People know when someone is dissembling and when they are being straight. It is easy to see if one is willing to look.
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Yep.

Devils' Advocate said:
The other point I would make is that having the backing of persons or organizations (of whatever kind) standing in for you conscience is hardly foolproof.
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LOL, hardly! And I object to organisations — and I think you can guess which one I'm thinking of — which assumes to remove my free moral choice and tell me how to respond in very given situation.

Devils' Advocate said:
We need to but look around to see people who have an organizational support system that should set them right that does nothing of the sort.
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And way too often becomes complicit in the wrong-doing to protect its 'reputation', and furthermore from what I hear, the organisational support was not much in evidence in the first place.
 
Thomas said:
Let me assert I'm not talking about our normal daily lives here, I'm talking about undertaking a spiritual quest within the context of a given tradition, so not the normal day-to-day ...
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I assert that in our daily lives we are on a spiritual quest. We have no choice, this the sea we swim in.

The current direction and personal value from that quest varies. How we answer the call varies. As do the results.

And our watching and responding to others actions and results...also part of the curriculum.

I don't recall reading about this in the course schedule. I don't remember standing in line to sign up, or.clicking yes. But I am paying the tuition, and surely want to pass, because i don't want to have to take it again.
 
I can agree to an extent. Our daily lives is a quest, whether we wish it to be or not. As you say, this reality is the sea we swim in. There is no getting out of it (until we die from this reality). Whether or not it is automatically a spiritual quest, not sure I would agree with that. I simply know too many people who are walking their life quest with spirituality having nothing to do with it whatever. Still I think we agree in principal; just quibbling about the finer details.
 
An atheist, bathed in science, overwhelmed that we are in fact stardust, and enthralled at the breadth, width and depth of life that is on our planet is in my perception on a spiritual quest or maybe I should have said journey.
 
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