Question regarding Jinn and "evil spirits"

[SufiPhilosophy]

Jinns are the spirit world, with some able to materialise. The devils are Jinn that mess with humans. The decent Jinn hide from us and never interfere with us. Some Jinn are Muslim, some Jewish (from the time of Solomon).

Even though many Jinn now worship God, all Jinn alive today are said to be descended from Satan but originally Satan was just one of the Jinn himself, not the original one. He was very powerful and became captain of the angels but he wasn't one himself. He used to be very pious, in fact l read one legend that there was nowhere on earth where he did not prostrate in prayer to Allah.

I guess Satan got so powerful that he decided God was just pretending to be infinite and could be overthrown, l guess God gave him a lot of power to continue the illusion for a set term before bringing him to justice.

Btw ghosts are evil Jinn if they reveal themselves to us. Often they will be the accompanying Jinn that each human has, wandering the earth after the human's death, knowing the human's life intimately, hence mediums get their knowledge. I guess this more likely happens if the death was horrible. Bhaktajan, if you aren't Muslim (?) please say so otherwise it may confuse the topic (by the way l re-read your last post and found it very interesting and agreeable, though l don't know the truth of the matter).

 

[Thomas]

Hi @SufiPhilosophy - welcome to the forum!

You've been busy, I see

Haven't had a chance to catch up with everything yet.

When you get a mo, perhaps drop some words in the Intro section?

Looking forward to discussions.

 

[SufiPhilosophy]

Hi @SufiPhilosophy - welcome to the forum!

You've been busy, I see

Haven't had a chance to catch up with everything yet.

When you get a mo, perhaps drop some words in the Intro section?

Looking forward to discussions.

Hi there thanks for the welcome and invite. I think l will ease off and probably fade away now. I soon realised l was necroposting, l think l've maxed most of the topics out. Plus l have a ton of real life work to do Will respond to alerts in the top right corner for a while yet though.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I guess Satan got so powerful that he decided God was just pretending to be infinite and could be overthrown, l guess God gave him a lot of power to continue the illusion for a set term before bringing him to justice.

I don't think satan has any power.
There is no power and might except with Almighty God !

I think it's more of a case of satan "cutting off his nose to spite his face" .. he knows he's eternally condemned .. he's not stupid.
he wants to take us all with him through spite and envy. Fortunately, he's "locked up" at the moment as it's Ramadan.
Alhamdulillah. All Praise is for God.

 

[SufiPhilosophy]

I don't think satan has any power.
There is no power and might except with Almighty God !

I think it's more of a case of satan "cutting off his nose to spite his face" .. he knows he's eternally condemned .. he's not stupid.
he wants to take us all with him through spite and envy. Fortunately, he's "locked up" at the moment as it's Ramadan.
Alhamdulillah. All Praise is for God.

I believe Allah gave him a lot of power: "la hawla wa quwwata illa billah" - "there no power nor ability, except by Allah"
A robbing murderer overpowering an innocent traveller is not God doing God's work.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..A robbing murderer overpowering an innocent traveller is not God doing God's work.

No .. but satan did not create anything .. except for confusion.
satan cannot even create a fly.

 

[SufiPhilosophy]

No .. but satan did not create anything .. except for confusion.
satan cannot even create a fly.

Sorry l don't understand the relevance to what l wrote. Also, l'm sure he could create things, l see no reason why not. E.g. through technology. Also, black magic has some sort of mechanism, such that it harms people. But i don't get how it relates to what i wrote and my correction of your objection.

Even Satan's children (the worker Jinns) were able to build the Temple of Solomon when forced into servitude by King Solomon.

 

[muhammad_isa]

@SufiPhilosophy

Let's go back to your statement "I guess Satan got so powerful that he decided God was just pretending to be infinite and could be overthrown, l guess God gave him a lot of power to continue the illusion for a set term before bringing him to justice."

The only power that I can see, is that Almighty God let's him destroy mankind, by deceiving them.
I also don't envisage that satan thinks that "God can be overthrown".
.. I think that due to the fact that he was a devoted saint, that is what makes him such a dangerous opponent.
he knows that he can't / won't win.

 

[SufiPhilosophy]

@SufiPhilosophy

Let's go back to your statement "I guess Satan got so powerful that he decided God was just pretending to be infinite and could be overthrown, l guess God gave him a lot of power to continue the illusion for a set term before bringing him to justice."

The only power that I can see, is that Almighty God let's him destroy mankind, by deceiving them.
I also don't envisage that satan thinks that "God can be overthrown".
.. I think that due to the fact that he was a devoted saint, that is what makes him such a dangerous opponent.
he knows that he can't / won't win.

Ah thanks for explaining. I was referring to a legend we have that Satan was sent to destroy the Jinn on earth because of their 3rd regicide. He led an army of angels and they supposedly killed all the Jinn and therefore the Jinn alive today are only the ones fathered by Satan himself and his wide.

He must have been quite a powerful Jinn. I don't know if he lost his power, or was given even more power. If Allah wanted Satan to continue in his error to prove a point, then l would guess Allah would give him rope to hang himself. If Allah were to reduce his power then l don't get why Allah didn't just complete the downsizing and kill Satan there and then.

My theory is that Satan grew in power and got more and more confident that he could defeat Allah and hence the rebellion is still in progress. Satan having no power or losing power doesn't fit in with that.

It's just a working theory, l could be wrong but it seems to sit well with all the other Islamic teachings.

EDIT: I just saw your part in red. Can l ask where you get the info that he knows he can't win? I'm genuinely interested.

 

[muhammad_isa]

EDIT: I just saw your part in red. Can l ask where you get the info that he knows he can't win? I'm genuinely interested.

11. Say: The angel of death, who hath charge concerning you, will gather you, and afterward unto your Lord ye will be returned.
12. Couldst thou but see when the guilty hang their heads before their Lord, (and say): Our Lord! We have now seen and heard, so send us back; we will do right, now we are sure.
13. And if We had so willed, We could have given every soul its guidance, but the word from Me concerning evildoers took effect: that I will fill hell with the jinn and mankind together.
- Qur'an The Prostration -

satan is the worst .. not only is he in rebellion towards God, but he has vowed to destroy mankind.
he is in the worst case of all. How does he know it? How can he NOT know it?
he has more religious knowledge than me. I haven't been living with angels in heaven.
he is well aware that there is an eternal hell for those that don't repent.

 

[SufiPhilosophy]

11. Say: The angel of death, who hath charge concerning you, will gather you, and afterward unto your Lord ye will be returned.
12. Couldst thou but see when the guilty hang their heads before their Lord, (and say): Our Lord! We have now seen and heard, so send us back; we will do right, now we are sure.
13. And if We had so willed, We could have given every soul its guidance, but the word from Me concerning evildoers took effect: that I will fill hell with the jinn and mankind together.
- Qur'an The Prostration -

satan is the worst .. not only is he in rebellion towards God, but he has vowed to destroy mankind.
he is in the worst case of all. How does he know it? How can he NOT know it?
he has more religious knowledge than me. I haven't been living with angels in heaven.
he is well aware that there is an eternal hell for those that don't repent.

Right. I sometimes think Satan is insane.

Evenso that doesn't preclude that he really does have power and he really does have a plan. There may be method to the supposed madness.

Back to your point though: you're using circular logic: God said so, therefore it is. This is absolutely true but in this life there is doubt.
Maybe there's two sides even to this story. Satan's version could be very much different. Maybe Satan has been led to believe God is a poser and can be overthrown. Maybe Satan has discovered things about the universe to make the overthrow of God seem a very real possibility.

I believe that God can destroy the universe in an instant and rebuild just as quick. However, that is my faith. I've not directly witnessed this at least l don't think l have.
From Satan's view point maybe he thinks God is just boastful and putting on a front. He can only really know once God displays this overwhelming force he's been holding back all these eons.

Even that overwhelming force that ends the universe in the blink of an eye would be an infinitely small part of what God can do. It all boils down to this: do you really believe in infinity? Really? What is infinity? Ever seen it? Really? So, I guess doubts grew in Satan's mind and God empowered him more and more to fuel those doubts and so set the scene for the story of mankind. Sad to think Satan was just a prop / backdrop for us.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Right. I sometimes think Satan is insane.

Not so much insane, but furious and out of control.

Back to your point though: you're using circular logic: God said so, therefore it is. This is absolutely true but in this life there is doubt.
Maybe there's two sides even to this story. Satan's version could be very much different. Maybe Satan has been led to believe God is a poser and can be overthrown. Maybe Satan has discovered things about the universe to make the overthrow of God seem a very real possibility.

..so satan has been deceived by a "bigger" satan?

 

[SufiPhilosophy]

Not so much insane, but furious and out of control.

..so satan has been deceived by a "bigger" satan?

I don't know what you mean by bigger Satan, but:
003.054 And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.

 

[stranger]

I don't know what you mean by bigger Satan, but:
003.054 And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.

A good rule of thumb in discerning Satan within and without: Follow the hubris. He just can't help it. With Allah, follow the love. Not always easy to tell between the two, makes you learn to use your heart and spirit more than brian/cleverness. Very tough lesson to learn. Allah schemes, Satan schemes, but only one can scheme with love.

 

[SufiPhilosophy]

A good rule of thumb in discerning Satan within and without: Follow the hubris. He just can't help it. With Allah, follow the love. Not always easy to tell between the two, makes you learn to use your heart and spirit more than brian/cleverness. Very tough lesson to learn.

Thank you.

I would differ though because Satan - as a prop - is being used to test us thoroughly. There's no hiding place.

017.062 ... give me grace until the Day of Resurrection I verily will seize his seed, save but a few.

He can get you through love: I've seen proponents of Buddhism (not really Buddhists themselves) with a militant anti-Islamic streak. They'll display pictures of guns in the house and glorify war, because they have to protect the noble love of Buddha, even if they aren't good enough for it (they're very pious so they accept they aren't good enough for Buddha) so they have to get militant and be threatening to Muslims because Muslims are not Buddhists, Buddhism = Love so Muslims = anti-Love = must die.

Sounds kind of garbled but l really have seen this mental mess unfold in several individuals, all of them well-to-do middle class.

Through charity: A person donates to the blind guide dog charity. They thiink that dark immigrants have obviously done nothing. In fact those dark immigrants are using up our money, taking our houses, causing our blind people to suffer. We need to put them in concentration camps or something. It's the only way to protect the poor blind people (the immigrants may have blind people too, but they aren't really people as such).


Through anger: Well, this needs no imagination. A person sees evil in everyone and every thing. And acts on it. Paranoid mess. Eventually sees 3 yellow cars and the traffic lights turn yellow. Obviously a wormhole opened by this coincidence , it was no coincidence. So the person stabs a pedestrian crossing the road at that very moment because she was an interdimensional intruder that appeared due to the wormhole.


It goes on and on.


By contrast, if God gets to you, even the bad you do becomes endearing, when you return to God in penitence or when you just didn't even mean it, e.g. when i hear of my mom breaking something or doing something naughty when she was a kid, it is very endearing because she was just wondeful.

 

[SufiPhilosophy]

..so satan has been deceived by a "bigger" satan?

In the context of 17:62 "He said: Seest Thou this (creature) whom Thou hast honoured above me, if Thou give me grace until the Day of Resurrection I verily will seize his seed, save but a few."

That does indicate that Satan knows he's doomed. Therefore i may be wrong that he really thinks he can overthrow God, maybe he knows he cannot.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I would differ though because Satan - as a prop - is being used to test us thoroughly. There's no hiding place.

017.062 ... give me grace until the Day of Resurrection I verily will seize his seed, save but a few.

Don't forget, Almighty God knew that satan would cause mankind to fall .. He is Omniscient
Basically, we can ALL act like satan.
.. so I don't know why we just need to think about iblees, the originator of dissension.

 

[SufiPhilosophy]

Don't forget, Almighty God knew that satan would cause mankind to fall .. He is Omniscient
Basically, we can ALL act like satan.
.. so I don't know why we just need to think about iblees, the originator of dissension.

I like to think there's an inner dimension and an outer. It's not just messing with our minds, i like to think there's a cosmic game being played too, like, in the physical universe.

 

[stranger]

Thank you.

I would differ though because Satan - as a prop - is being used to test us thoroughly. There's no hiding place.

017.062 ... give me grace until the Day of Resurrection I verily will seize his seed, save but a few.

He can get you through love: I've seen proponents of Buddhism (not really Buddhists themselves) with a militant anti-Islamic streak. They'll display pictures of guns in the house and glorify war, because they have to protect the noble love of Buddha, even if they aren't good enough for it (they're very pious so they accept they aren't good enough for Buddha) so they have to get militant and be threatening to Muslims because Muslims are not Buddhists, Buddhism = Love so Muslims = anti-Love = must die.

Sounds kind of garbled but l really have seen this mental mess unfold in several individuals, all of them well-to-do middle class.

Through charity: A person donates to the blind guide dog charity. They thiink that dark immigrants have obviously done nothing. In fact those dark immigrants are using up our money, taking our houses, causing our blind people to suffer. We need to put them in concentration camps or something. It's the only way to protect the poor blind people (the immigrants may have blind people too, but they aren't really people as such).


Through anger: Well, this needs no imagination. A person sees evil in everyone and every thing. And acts on it. Paranoid mess. Eventually sees 3 yellow cars and the traffic lights turn yellow. Obviously a wormhole opened by this coincidence , it was no coincidence. So the person stabs a pedestrian crossing the road at that very moment because she was an interdimensional intruder that appeared due to the wormhole.


It goes on and on.


By contrast, if God gets to you, even the bad you do becomes endearing, when you return to God in penitence or when you just didn't even mean it, e.g. when i hear of my mom breaking something or doing something naughty when she was a kid, it is very endearing because she was just wondeful.

Thank you.

I would differ though because Satan - as a prop - is being used to test us thoroughly. There's no hiding place.

017.062 ... give me grace until the Day of Resurrection I verily will seize his seed, save but a few.

He can get you through love: I've seen proponents of Buddhism (not really Buddhists themselves) with a militant anti-Islamic streak. They'll display pictures of guns in the house and glorify war, because they have to protect the noble love of Buddha, even if they aren't good enough for it (they're very pious so they accept they aren't good enough for Buddha) so they have to get militant and be threatening to Muslims because Muslims are not Buddhists, Buddhism = Love so Muslims = anti-Love = must die.

Sounds kind of garbled but l really have seen this mental mess unfold in several individuals, all of them well-to-do middle class.

Through charity: A person donates to the blind guide dog charity. They thiink that dark immigrants have obviously done nothing. In fact those dark immigrants are using up our money, taking our houses, causing our blind people to suffer. We need to put them in concentration camps or something. It's the only way to protect the poor blind people (the immigrants may have blind people too, but they aren't really people as such).


Through anger: Well, this needs no imagination. A person sees evil in everyone and every thing. And acts on it. Paranoid mess. Eventually sees 3 yellow cars and the traffic lights turn yellow. Obviously a wormhole opened by this coincidence , it was no coincidence. So the person stabs a pedestrian crossing the road at that very moment because she was an interdimensional intruder that appeared due to the wormhole.


It goes on and on.


By contrast, if God gets to you, even the bad you do becomes endearing, when you return to God in penitence or when you just didn't even mean it, e.g. when i hear of my mom breaking something or doing something naughty when she was a kid, it is very endearing because she was just wondeful.

Very good... So how can we be sure we are acting in love? Or can we? The still small voice within, perhaps? It sounds like you are talking about a constant battle going on within. In Christianity the prodigal was the one who moved God's heart, to such an obvious extent that (in the parable) the other brother became jealous. The father comforts the jealous brother "all that I have is thine", but it is obvious that the prodigal who has been in some very dark places moves the very heart of the father/God. I ramble here, I hope some of this made sense. Let me try again. His heart goes out in a special way to those who are in trouble.

 

[SufiPhilosophy]

Very good... So how can we be sure we are acting in love? Or can we? The still small voice within, perhaps? So you are talking about a constant battle going on within. In Christianity the prodigal was the one who moved God's heart, to such an obvious extent that (in the parable) the other brother became jealous. The father comforts the jealous brother "all that I have is thine", but it is obvious that the prodigal who has been in some very dark places moves the very heart of the father/God. I ramble here, I hope some of this made sense. Let me try again. His heart goes out in a special way to those who are in trouble.

How to be sure?

As l see it, we are destined to fail but how we do it is what matters. In other words: self critique - did you do your best?

Also, look at people labouring away in slums or , i don't know, a dead battered baby that turns up in a bin. Those poor souls just do what they do in the short time they have in this life. In other words: just get through your day without harming others.



Beneath all this, l would say: we have an inner criterion (telling us wrong from right), wordless, formless, written on our hearts, it's a miracle because there's no biological mechanism for it.
As we age we do bad things without saying sorry, and so we gradually overthrow the inner criterion and so our hearts die and we become sociopaths. But we have it at the beginning at least.