Some comments on Christmas

As emperor, yes. What observances and when, with reference to Christianity, came from within Christianity, not from him. So at Nicea he says, what day d'you want Easter? And they say, "As we have always done ..." and regarding the dispute with Arius, "Is he right or wrong?" And they say, "He's wrong." And he says, "OK. He's wrong, he's exiled. Everything he's written will be burnt ..."
But his word was ignored. If he had full authority over the church, the dispute would have stopped there.

But see, every time you do this, you leave out half of the story. Your consistency in doing this broadcasts your bias. A scholar worthy of the title *cannot* be biased. Any bias *must* be set aside.

Taking you at your word here...why the need to call the Council at Nicea if everyone already agreed regarding Easter and over Arius? If everyone agreed...as you imply...there would be no dispute and no need to call the Council.

More accurate would be "(A)s *some* of us have done, some less time and some more time...."
 
But see, every time you do this, you leave out half of the story. Your consistency in doing this broadcasts your bias. A scholar worthy of the title *cannot* be biased. Any bias *must* be set aside.
But this is just uncalled for, the inconsistency you see is what you two have been arguing since forever. He states that there was a consensus in the Christian Community/Church based on scripture. You say that there were no consensus. Neither of you have been able to convince the other of your position so calling the other party bias because you disagree sets a very poor tone.
 
But this is just uncalled for, the inconsistency you see is what you two have been arguing since forever. He states that there was a consensus in the Christian Community/Church based on scripture. You say that there were no consensus. Neither of you have been able to convince the other of your position so calling the other party bias because you disagree sets a very poor tone.
I am not understanding.

The tenor of your comment leads me to believe that by pointing out bias it is somehow a slur or derogatory. There is no "poor tone" inferred or implied, least of all by me.

Name any other here who will leap to Thomas' defense? I am always first in line. He and I don't always see eye to eye, but he is still my brother.
 
The tenor of your comment leads me to believe that by pointing out bias it is somehow a slur or derogatory. There is no "poor tone" inferred or implied, least of all by me.
Telling someone they aren't a good scholar when doing scholarly work is criticism, yes? But the source of the criticism is that he holds the opposite view. As you are also the opposing party there is also a conflict of interests. Why don't just keep to the sources and leave the person out of it.

I'm fine with Thomas having an underlying bias in the sense that all humans have, but to imply that you are a superior scholar on your own say so sets, I think, a poor tone.

@Thomas I'm sorry for this. I did this because of the tone on the board, not because I don't think you can take care of yourself. And you might very well disagree with me on this. If not to reprimand me, please ignore my posts here.
 
Telling someone they aren't a good scholar when doing scholarly work is criticism, yes?
Forgive me, but I have always been taught not to call someone stupid...for example...but to illustrate to them how a particular behavior might be a bit less than smart.

I will leave to you to understand how that applies here.

While yes, it may be called "criticism," there are many meanings attached to that word. The non-derogatory meaning that relates directly to scholarship, also colloquially known as "constructive criticism," is not the same as you imply. "Critique" is a fundamental part of scholarship, otherwise the term "scholarship" has no meaning. Critique is the very basis of peer review.
 
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While yes, it may be called "criticism," there are many meanings attached to that word. The non-derogatory meaning that relates directly to scholarship, also colloquially known as "constructive criticism," is not the same as you imply. "Critique" is a fundamental part of scholarship, otherwise the term "scholarship" has no meaning. Critique is the very basis of peer review.
I agree that it was constructive and that constructive criticism is good. But then I followed with:
But the source of the criticism is that he holds the opposite view. As you are also the opposing party there is also a conflict of interests. Why don't just keep to the sources and leave the person out of it.
Again:
He states that there was a consensus in the Christian Community/Church based on scripture. You say that there were no consensus. Neither of you have been able to convince the other of your position so calling the other party bias because you disagree sets a very poor tone.
 
:) Which means that you equate "good" with "poor tone." Perhaps now you understand why I don't understand?
 
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... in that the verbiage used to justify establishment of Easter and Sunday quite plainly states that it is no longer obligatory to comply with rituals and traditions set forth by G-d through Moses and Abraham.
That's a bit of a sweeping and inaccurate assumption.

The Passover recalls a moment in the Salvation History of the Jews, but the Passion recalls a moment in the Salvation History of humanity. It's a much bigger deal. The Easter celebration of the Jews is for the Jews alone, whereas the Easter celebration of the Christian is for the whole world. The connection between the Passover and Christ is not overlooked, the Hebrew Scriptures are not ignored, but with a decade of His death was spoken of as 'our Pasch' and Jewish history is seen in that light.

The man-made traditions of Abraham and Moses, like the circumcision or divorce, were for an unruly people. The New Testament argued that it was not necessary for the Christian to observe these laws — what mattered was Baptism, and again, even in Paul's time the baptism of John the Baptist was seen as deficient, and anyone coming to the faith had to be rebapised.

But if you were steeped in the Christian Liturgy, you would not say the rituals and traditions set forth by God were no longer obligatory — again, Paul argued that the Covenant with Israel still holds. The Hebrew Scriptures we read and prayed at the sabbath observances.

The Emperor was traditionally, including Constantine, vested with both secular and religious authority.
Constantine told Arius to toe the line. Arius refused. Constantine exiled him. Arius continued to rouse support. Constantine told both Arius and Athanasius to shake hands. Both refused... both answered, as they saw it, to a higher authority. The will of the emperor was just something to be managed.

So I absolutely agree...Constantine didn't insert anything at Nicea,
Thank you, that's all I have been trying to clarify.

That a "Nativity Feast" is not mentioned at Nicea or Laodicea, compels me to believe it may have been a unilateral order from the Emperor, who was the only person in the Empire with broad enough authority to do such a thing.
Why? There's no evidence for it.

Personally, I don't it. By now things were becoming a matter of record. A synod at least would be necessary for an emperor to declare a new feast — as every other decision the emperors made were transmitted via synods. We have no reference of Dec 25 being proposed or discussed at any synod ...

Not correct...it was for *some* Christians, not all. That was the kind of problem that Nicea tried to address.
The sabbath and the Lord's Day were well established traditions by Constantine's time, we can see that is the Fathers. Even at Laodicea, 40 years later, and a decidedly anti-semitic synod, Christians still celebrated both days, the Sabbath and the Lord's Day, even though there are so many proscriptions against consorting with Jews. The Sabbath wasn't abolished, but the emphasis was definitely on the Day of Rest.
 
A scholar worthy of the title *cannot* be biased. Any bias *must* be set aside.
But all your unsupported assertions are founded on nothing but your bias!

Taking you at your word here...why the need to call the Council at Nicea if everyone already agreed regarding Easter and over Arius? If everyone agreed...as you imply...there would be no dispute and no need to call the Council.
As far as we can tell, the practice was common in the west, but not so in the east.

The synod of Antioch (341) forbade the Christians to celebrate Easter when the Jews were observing Passover — over fifteen years after Nicea! John Chrysostom (366-387) delivered six sermons in Antioch in which he denounced those Christians in Antioch who attended synagogues and resorted to the Jewish law courts.

Same with Arius. Whatever Constantine hoped, things went on pretty much as they did before.

For the Christian, emperors come and go. What guarantee did they have that he wouldn't change his mind, or be killed in battle, or be murdered in his bed, or be succeeded by a new Caligula? None.
 
But all your unsupported assertions are founded on nothing but your bias!
Perhaps, but I do make it as clear as I possibly can when I make an "unsupported" assertion. I want to believe my assertions have some merit, but in the end I agree they are educated guesses.

For the Christian, emperors come and go. What guarantee did they have that he wouldn't change his mind, or be killed in battle, or be murdered in his bed, or be succeeded by a new Caligula? None.
:) Part of the cost of doing business, I guess... But yeah, nothing in life is guaranteed.
 
I came across the term 'caesaropapism' while looking at stuff on this, and thought it useful.

Caesaropapism in the Eastern Church
Caesaropapism's chief example is the authority the Byzantine (East Roman) Emperors had over the Church of Constantinople or Eastern Christian Church from the 330 consecration of Constantinople through the tenth century. The Byzantine Emperor would typically protect the Eastern Church and manage its administration by presiding over Ecumenical Councils and appointing Patriarchs and setting territorial boundaries for their jurisdiction. The Emperor exercised a strong control over the ecclesiastical hierarchy, and the Patriarch of Constantinople could not hold office if he did not have the Emperor's approval. Eastern men like St. John Chrysostom, Patriarch of Constantinople and St. Athanasius, Patriarch of Alexandria, strongly opposed imperial control over the Church, as did Western theologians like St. Hilary and Hosius, Bishop of Córdoba. Such Emperors as Basiliscus, Zeno, Justinian I, Heraclius, and Constans II published several strictly ecclesiastical edicts either on their own without the mediation of church councils, or they exercised their own political influence on the councils to issue the edicts.
However, John Meyendorff has stated: "Caesaropapism ... never became an accepted principle in Byzantium." Several saints resisted the imperial power as a consequence of their witness to orthodoxy, such as Maximus the Confessor. In addition, at several occasions imperial decrees had to be withdrawn as the people of the Church, both lay people, monks and priests, refused to accept inventions at variance with the Church's customs and beliefs. These events show that power over the Church really was in the hands of the Church itself – not solely with the emperor. (wiki)
Caesaropapism is generally regarded as a pejorative term, applied to the Eastern (Greek) Orthodox communion by the Western (Latin) communion.

Caesaropapism in the Western Church
The Byzantine Papacy was a period of Byzantine domination of the papacy from 537 to 752, when popes required the approval of the Byzantine Emperor for episcopal consecration, and many popes were chosen from the apocrisiarii (liaisons from the pope to the emperor) or the inhabitants of Byzantine Greece, Byzantine Syria, or Byzantine Sicily. Justinian I conquered the Italian peninsula in the Gothic War (535–554) and appointed the next three popes, a practice that would be continued by his successors and later be delegated to the Exarchate of Ravenna.
It was never really a western phenomena, rather an eastern one that visited itself on the west ...

Constantinian Shift
During the 4th century, however, there was no real unity between church and state: in the course of the Arian controversy, Arian or semi-Arian emperors exiled leading Trinitarian bishops ... just as leading Arian and Anomoean theologians also suffered exile.
Towards the end of the century, Bishop Ambrose of Milan (in the West) refused Emperor Theodosius I (reigned 379–95) entry to the church and made him do penance for several months after the massacre of Thessalonica (390) before admitting him again to the Eucharist. On the other hand, only a few years later, Chrysostom, who as bishop of Constantinople criticized the excesses of the royal court, was eventually banished (403) and died (407) while traveling to his place of exile.(wiki: Constantinian shift)

Discussion of the process in the Byzanyine Church here
 
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