Ulitmate Question!

[dauer]

]What intrigues me is: is it really that important in ones life to be able to describe oneself as "presbetarian", or "jewish", or "an atheist", or something else ? And if that is important, why is it important ?

Important in what sense? I call myself a Jew for the same reason I call myself a college student. It describes my position.

I find myself to be a spiritual person, and the sence of belonging to a greater power is growing within me more and more with years, but I never felt that I should live my spirituality by practicing this or that religious practice, or by following any kind of philosophical or esoteric teaching. "Catholicism", "gnosticism", "budhism"… those are just words, whose meanings were shaped by men, as well as the philosophies behind them.

Is something bad just because man shaped it? Your own way of life is also shaped by man.

So. What percentage of jewish teachings, practices etc. one must agree with to be considered of jewish faith, by his/her's, or the view of people around them ?

I wouldn't call Judaism a faith because I don't think that's a good definition. I'd call it an evolving religious civilization. The people around me would consider me Jewish, at least at some level, even if I became a Mormon. Faith is also inaccurate because it suggests that faith plays the same role in Judaism as it does in, for instance, Christianity.

I am considered a Jew because my mother is a Jew. By definition this makes me Jewish. My religiosity could better be defined by my level of observance of ritual and moral practices. Increasing these practices would mean the people around me would see me more as "acting Jewish." However, without acting in this fashion I would remain a Jew through and through. I would say that for Jews teachings are important, but the metaphysical ones are vague and usually have more than one answer anyway.

Would I do better in life (this one or the next) if I start

Only you know what path is right for you. I value community in my ventures into spirituality and so organized religion agrees with me. Some people find God in times of being alone.

Spirituality is the most private of all notions of a human being.

How is this true? Experience is private. Shared experience is a sharing of secret intimacies. I would rather know God in a room full of friends I don't know as we seek His face than alone in my room with nobody to confide in with my beaming heart. Any experience that is universally knowable cannot be declared "most private." And this is true of all human experience.

So why is belonging to an istitution (even if that institution is "atheism") so important when it comes to live it ?

Okay, you got me. I go for the food.

Dauer

 

[Basstian]

Tristan I write this for you in hopes that its meaning will answer some of the questions you are asking your self.

I myself was raised in a religion that was very strict do this dont do that or your going to burn in hell. Even though that was not the serman preached from the pulpit every week it was the underlieing message you went home with.
I was always left with I cant do it I will never be that good or bring my life to that standard. At the end of everyday I was left feeling like a failure like I had fallen short with no hope for tommorrow. I smiled and continued on day after day year after year on the outside Devote on the inside heartbroke and in dispair.

Its was not until I read that every man must work out his own salvation with fear and trembling I realized that following a group seeking salvation was not the answer for me. I realized that personal study and soul seeking was the only path that I could follow that would leave me with the peace I had been searching for.

My faith is based on what I read in the Bible both old and new testament. I believe there is a straight and narrow way that leads us to salvation. One that doesnt allow a group to walk hand in hand. But requires each person to choose their steps carefully like walking a narrow ledge picking and carefully considering each step. Follow the guy in front of you and you make the same mistakes he does. Ask advice of the person behind you and get his prediction of what lies ahead not a sure truth of what you will encounter.

I am neither Jew Nor Greek Nor Christian nor any other "religion" I see in Judism a faith in a God that in my heart I know exists and is the Creator of all things. I see in Christianity the Fulfilment of the promises made by God to the Jewish people. But I myself as of now have not found this path to salvation wide enough to walk down with either. I will continue on single file as I have been for sometime offering support to any I come across not bidding them to follow nor asking them to lead . But encouraging to continue on searching each step using Gods word as the only guide on this narrow trail.

You may find me Sunday morning singing praises, you may find me in the synagogue praying hearing the law and the prophets some sabbath, You may find me kneeling in prayer towards meeca with my Muslim brothers trying to learn real devotion, Or simply walking through the woods listening for the voice of God carried on the wind.

My advice seperate the truth from the traditions, study to the point you can tell Deception from Doctrine. Amd most important WALK ON BY FAITH

Jesus said "I am the Way the Truth and the Light " He to me is everything I need to complete this journey I hope and pray that you can very soon tell me and the rest of the world that you to have found your way.

 

[PersonaNonGrata]

Its was not until I read that every man must work out his own salvation with fear and trembling I realized that following a group seeking salvation was not the answer for me. I realized that personal study and soul seeking was the only path that I could follow that would leave me with the peace I had been searching for.[/QUOTE=Basstian]

Good decision.

My faith is based on what I read in the Bible both old and new testament. I believe there is a straight and narrow way that leads us to salvation. One that doesnt allow a group to walk hand in hand. But requires each person to choose their steps carefully like walking a narrow ledge picking and carefully considering each step. Follow the guy in front of you and you make the same mistakes he does. Ask advice of the person behind you and get his prediction of what lies ahead not a sure truth of what you will encounter.

I am neither Jew Nor Greek Nor Christian nor any other "religion" I see in Judism a faith in a God that in my heart I know exists and is the Creator of all things. I see in Christianity the Fulfilment of the promises made by God to the Jewish people. But I myself as of now have not found this path to salvation wide enough to walk down with either. I will continue on single file as I have been for sometime offering support to any I come across not bidding them to follow nor asking them to lead . But encouraging to continue on searching each step using Gods word as the only guide on this narrow trail.

You may find me Sunday morning singing praises, you may find me in the synagogue praying hearing the law and the prophets some sabbath, You may find me kneeling in prayer towards meeca with my Muslim brothers trying to learn real devotion, Or simply walking through the woods listening for the voice of God carried on the wind.

My advice seperate the truth from the traditions, study to the point you can tell Deception from Doctrine. Amd most important WALK ON BY FAITH

Jesus said "I am the Way the Truth and the Light " He to me is everything I need to complete this journey I hope and pray that you can very soon tell me and the rest of the world that you to have found your way.

What? What kind of a dilemma are we in

??

 

[PersonaNonGrata]

I have to agree with Brian, Postmaster, and do not see how what you have stated in your last post has any bearing on it?

Prophets surely set themselves up as 'superior', because they claim to 'know' something, just through personal feelings, others don't know.

The quran is an exceptional case, however mohammed interferes with his daily life quite a lot, i would recommend all of you to take a look at it.

 

[Basstian]

What? What kind of a dilemma are we in??

PersonaNonGrata I would be pleased to answer this question if you would ask in more detail.

Peace

 

[Blue]

PersonaNonGrata I would be pleased to answer this question if you would ask in more detail.

Peace

=======
I agree, Basstian.

PNG said previously: "The Quran is an exception."

Why is that PNG? An exception to what? The Bible?

 

[louis]

From Louis...
It was not I - it was Brian who first used the term "reductionist" -
it was his definition of the term that SEEMED to apply to me.
But YOUR definition does not describe me at all..!
Although I must disagree with the second part of your reply -
to sit on a chair and simply have faith that it will support you
seems a little foolish. An unfamiliar chair needs to be TESTED -
because in the real world, some chairs DO break.

 

[Kaldayen]

I could say I'm agnostic... I just hope there's "something else" but, for me, nothing significant points towards it.

If I had to pick a religion I would pick Shinto, from the Chinese "Shen Tao" or "The way of the Spirit"

Mathghamhain, are you Japanese? Kami "living" exclusivly in the japanese islands, I have trouble understanding how someone from somewhere else than Japan could follow Shintoism.

 

[Visitor]

Ok I want everyone to answer this question for me, I want the whole community here to take part. What I want to know is which of you practice a religion? Which of you are spiritualists? And which of you are atheists? I hope Brian will also answer this question. Basically where do you fall in terms of views?



Personally I'm a practicing Christian Greek Orthodox and respect all religions.

I'm curious as to why you want to know where everyone stands in their views? I am also interested in your understanding of the term spiritualist. Do you use it in the sense of those that act as mediums etc or is it a more general term for anyone interest in 'spirituality' (as broad a definition as that is!). Or am I way off on both counts ?
As for where I fall in terms of views: I am a follower of Jesus Christ.

 

[Postmaster]

Spiritualism to me means there is more then material existence.



I want to know how many people using this forum take up to faith, there seems to be less people trying to discredit religious teachings then there are people taking them up, a very good sign indeed Also everything is simply out of curiosity and for people posting all together about there religions, just goes to show that all religions practise one thing ultimately the recognition of positive and good to dominate. All religions are correct in this sense.

 

[Blue]

Hi PM,

I too do not really understand the question in terms of what use you think the information could be put.

I am a theist, in as much as I have a personal faith.

That does not prevent me from witnessing the horrors of blind faith in some religions, and the nonsenses of doctrines and dogmas developed by human beings in a variety of major 'Faiths', especially, perhaps Pauline christianity in which much of Christianity is based.

Your problem it seems to me is to distinguish the true nature of faith.

FAITH, as I have said on this Community a number of times now, does NOT depend upon proof in the cognitive and material domain. It only depends upon an individual's affective nature and nurture and their individual affirmation of their faith - thier personal validations. They should not be seeking proof outside of themselves... there isn't any! Nor shouold they be proclaiming they have 'truths' of a universal nature... proselytising. Certainly there isn't any external proof for my own faith and I have never seen any objective material evidence/proof beyond the assertions of any other believers in a spiritual faith.
IF there was proof beyond an individual's heart and soul, we would be dealing with objective facts, and they are amenable to investigation and evidence in the material domain... there would be NO necessity for 'Faith'.

Ultimate questions posit ultimate answers in spiritual and metaphysical terms... and so far as anyone knows, there are none... unless you would like to correct me?

 

[lunamoth]

For better or for worse it seems to me that religion (not faith) is a community thing. I tend to view religions as instruments and at best as God's instruments (don't jump on me Blue--must I put in a disclaimer every time I say God? ). They are a means both to help the individual grow spiritually and to help the individual serve mankind. Certainly individual's can go about doing good works without being part of a religion and certainly there can be organizations that serve humanity without acknowledging God. What is the added benefit of acknowledging God? I can't answer except to say that it appears to be ingrained in many of us. As individuals we know or experience something that is not explained by objective means. I experience a kind of gestalt by belonging to a community devoted to the worship of God.

Blue, you might agree that although we can't agree on or even adequately express what it is that we are experiencing, many people have faith in something greater than the rational, testable, material world.

Now that survivial no longer depends upon being part of particular religious group (as it did in the past, based upon my reading of Karen Armstong's The Battle for God), individuals are free to follow their own path and many do so. I sometimes think of this as off-road four-wheeling as opposed to taking the highway . Mystics are able do this within the system of a particular religion, distilling the message to a highly refined, crystalline path.

But for myself, although I don't think I am a mindless sheep, I would not know how to begin to formulate my own path. God doesn't speak to me as a voice in my head. Could I create and improve the religious thought that has evolved over millenia in my short lifetime while I'm also preoccupied by material life, raising a family, persuing a career? (Speaking of which, my two-year-old has put a lovely new art display on my wall as I've been distracted wrting this!) Better for me to stand on the shoulders of giants and reach from there.

As for why would PM want to know our religious affiliations if any, well, that is part of our basis for discussion, isn't it? It seems reasonable to me and no one has to answer if they don't want to . If we oppress all personal belief in a religous forum I don't think we'll be able to learn very much from each other. Best to just go buy a book on comparative religion.

OK i will lighten up!

 

[Blue]

No need to lighten up, LunaMoth, I'm going to agree with what you say, which I thought was eminently reasonable all the way through.

As you said, about the first paragraph, that I might agree... I do!

(Gosh- this must be one of my shortest posts ever! lol )