The Seven Types of Atheism

[Bhaktajan II]

Anthrpomorphism, its what's for dinner.

What is Persona?
Persona is constituted of six opulences:
1. Beauty
2. Knowledge
3. Strength
4. Wealth
5. Fame &
6. Renunciation

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Consciousness

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What is nescience?
1. Physics
2. the Elements of the Periodic Table.
3. Space


"Self-realisation" = ________________

 

[RJM]

So let me get this right: we should venerate/worship the divine in the person of the guru, and believe everything the guru tells us is true?

 

[wil]

Many Hindus do venerate Jesus as a guru

 

[powessy]

Ok. But that means the potential energy that will become a new universe is stored somehow in a state called 'nothingness'? Sort of.

But what is nothingness? It's not a void, or empty space, or a 'state of nothingness'. It's absolutely non-existent. It cannot be a storage place for dark matter.

It cannot store energy, and it cannot emit energy -- because it just isn't there?

I need to drop out of the Kalam discussion now. So please don't think I'm being rude if I dont respond to any more replies about it to my own posts.

Just wanted to answer. I have been on a journey of thoughts that has been trying very hard to explain something and nothing to me. First of all I would say there is no such thing as absolute nothing. It is like light and dark, each with just the absence of the other. The potential energy is the sum energy for each galaxy and how much time it has until it becomes nothing again. move outside of our universe and you would find yourself in another universe with trillions of galaxies.

In the beginning of time nothing entered into something to figure something out. Nothing could not become something so they went all the way down into something until nothing started to become something. Once nothing became something or themselves only, they entered into themselves many times to figure themselves out until no time remained. Nothing traveled from no time to no time inside of something to become themselves only. Nothing then became themselves and did so until they could not become something again. Nothing would just keep becoming nothing again and again until they could not become something again all time gone. This is where god comes in or something, Something went outside of no time to become something again and formed the first dimension called "yourself". God is himself only and is time all the time but can only become himself or myself as they also refer to this. Every dimension has seven yourselves and one myself to form all the time lines and the staircase to allow nothing to become something here. Every dimension is locked in as god goes outside of yourself to become myself again creating a new timeline.

So in simpler terms god has to find a new timeline seven times inside of nothing to find time per dimension, so nothing can become something again and again. In our lifetimes we are constantly becoming nothing here cell by cell. Our time is not lost it just changes states of being. In the after we can find our time again to become ourselves again if you know how. There are so many other steps to this it would take pages and pages to put it into a easier way to understand this.

As for the universe It started when something and nothing came together. I would say if you could enter the black hole in the center of the milky way you would enter into a new timeline and a new universe much smaller then this one but from your perspective it would be very similar. Within that universe there would be also more galaxies and they also would be able to be entered and within them there would be another universe with galaxies. I believe the seven timelines is the number of timelines needed to allow everything inside of these galaxies to become something again.

 

[RJM]

Ok, I would like to answer too, because we have gone on from the Kalam discussion:

It is like light and dark, each with just the absence of the other.

But while it's correct that darkness is the absence of light, it is incorrect to say that light is the absence of darkness. Close yourself in a dark cupboard and tape up all the cracks so that no light can enter, that is absolute darkness. It cannot get any darker. There is no light at all. But if you flick a lighter, you will be able to see. A candle will be brighter: 10 candles, 10 light bulbs, a sun, 10 million suns -- there is no end to light?

In the beginning of time nothing entered into something to figure something out. Nothing could not become something so they went all the way down into something until nothing started to become something. Once nothing became something ...

Is 'nothingness' the state between the inbreath and the outbreath?

As for the universe It started when something and nothing came together.

There needs to be another word then, to substitute for 'nothing'?

EDIT:
Many faiths teach that the essential yin/yang duality that is nature, was/is emanated from a condition of Spirit beyond nature, where the duality does not exist ...

 

[Bhaktajan II]

I was saying that YOU believe Super Nerds extraordinaire when they say "Billions and Billions"...
Some one said: "there are maybe 100 billion galaxies and 10 billion trillion stars. It's hard to ..."
That speaker is a Guru, who many follow 100% as revelation.

If he said so it must be correct!

So let me get this right: we should venerate/worship the divine in the person of the guru, and believe everything the guru tells us is true?

When the the "spokesman" speaks on behalf of the executive figurehead of the Space Industrial Complex ---you are listening to a Guru.

The place on earth where the word Guru is used ... is also used to refer to the Teacher.

Sifu is the Kung-fu master ...and also the fish chef.

Maestro is the school teacher ... and also the rock guitar god [ie Page, Clapton, etc]

El Senor God ...and is also the old man next door.

When Tiger Woods teaches you how to play golf ... you have learned from the Guru.

When some one asks you "Who is your real father"? you answer by quoting your Guru.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Please note the use of Sanskrit terms that have long been unknown and are rarefied meanings. I suggest that the reader barrel through those words to capture the import, and or look them up.

There needs to be another word then, to substitute for 'nothing'?

EDIT:
Many faiths teach that the essential yin/yang duality that is nature, was/is emanated from a condition of Spirit beyond nature, where the duality does not exist ...

It is called the field.

Yin-Yang is way nature is acting.

"emanated from a condition of Spirit beyond nature" is what the Vedas explain.

"This material creation is the spirit soul's dream, all existence in this world is the dream of Maha-Vishnu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation." (Srimad Bhagavatam 4.29.83)

“Due to this long period of time, it is sometimes said that we are ever conditioned. But this long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually wakes up from the material dream and comes to Krishna consciousness”.

When that happens, one wakes up from their nitya-baddha condition and realizes their nitya-siddha body and that they were with Krishna all along.

The Physical Universe (Mahat Tattva) is a Virtual Reality that is Real, but Temporary



All marginal living entities in Vaikuntha can project a holographic version of the sub-conscious self that is a real feature of their individual personality and physic. This inferior lower self is known as the nitya-baddha consciousness. When one desires to forget Krishna and the svarupa body they serve Krishna as in Goloka, they can enter the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within His mahat tattva creation as this nitya-baddha echo of the self.



This secondary self or baddha-jiva consciousness, activated by free will and the desire to forget Krishna, is a living real holographic counterfeit projection of the marginal living entity that enables one to enter the mahat-tattva without their real nitya-siddha body leaving Goloka or Vaikuntha.



It is there in the mahat-tattva, that is a real reality but temporary, the living entity, manifesting as their secondary jiva projected consciousness, attempts to fulfill their mistaken dreams to achieve anything they want. Such material facilities are provided by Maha Vishnu and simultaneously gained and created by their own material desires.



Srila Prabhupada - "This material creation is the spirit soul's dream, all existence in this world is the dream of Maha-Vishnu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation." (Srimad Bhagavatam 4.29.83)



Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” (Srimad Bhagavatam 4.29.2b)



Srila Prabhupada is saying that our original and perpetual state of being an eternal nitya-siddha bodily servant of Krishna means one never falls down, that is, their nitya-siddha body never leaves Goloka. However, he also tells us that the memory of being nitya-siddha can be covered over or forgotten by the choice to imagine your own existence without Krishna. This is just like dreaming in our present material body where we dream, or think we are King of a world, but actually our material body has not moved.



In this way Srila Prabhupada is saying that our nitya-siddha or svarupa body can be covered over only and the memory of being nitya-siddha forgotten, like one forgets their material body while dreaming.



In this way, our present baddha jiva mundane consciousness dream state enters material vessels due to our thoughts of material desires and our imagination to be master instead of servant. Due to such selfish desires manifested by our free will to choose, our awareness of reality within Goloka is transferred to temporary reality of the mahat-tattva cloud, or the physical universe of virtual reality.



It is there, within the dreams of Maha Vishnu, one may remain trapped in their own psychosis within that virtual reality dream state, as depicted in the movie 'The Matrix,' for a very, very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations within the mahat-tattva are coming and going.



Srila Prabhupada - “Due to this long period of time, it is sometimes said that we are ever conditioned. But this long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually wakes up from the material dream and comes to Krishna consciousness”.



When that happens, one wakes up from their nitya-baddha condition and realizes their nitya-siddha body and that they were with Krishna all along.



What does the word 'real' mean?



In Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, the actions, thoughts and dreams of the marginal living entity are ALL REAL, are all on the same level of a reality that exists eternally in God's Kingdom in a perpetual atmosphere devoid of past, future and impermanence.



So, what is the difference between what is REAL in Goloka and what is REAL in the material creation known as the mahat tattva?



The answer is, there is NO difference in the meaning of word reality in both places because both creations are real solid realities devoid of apparitions to those who have true Knowledge.



In other words, they are both the same within the criteria of the word real however, one reality (Goloka) is imperishable situated within the eternal present mode of eternal loving bhakti, while the other reality (maha tattva) is also real but is perishable, exists for sometime then fades to be as if it never was.



The highest and natural expression of the marginal living entity is realizing their full potential as their perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa devotional body, as already explained. This state is also the full potential of the word 'REAL'.



This is hard for us to understand from our present dimensional platform of consciousness that is trapped in the mahat-tattva because we are governed by the divided eternal presents that manifests as past, present, future, which causes the reaction of decay and forgetfulness.



By foolishly desiring to ignore God and the perpetual body one REALLY is in Goloka in their full potential, we are restricted to our secondary dream state conscious REALITY (nitya-baddha) that is constrained to the laws of the mahat-tattva or material creation.



On the absolute level every dream and thought is as real as ones deeds.



Even in the heavenly planets within the mahat-tattva, where the nitya-baddha dream state is confined to an ethereal body in a sub-space dimension of the mahat-tattva, one's thoughts and deeds are on an equal footing.



The heavenly realm or atmosphere is completely different from our secular condition on this gross material planet, where the ethereal or subtle body that houses the baddha jiva consciousness is further restricted and restrained by a biological vessel.



However, both the secular world of biological bodies and the subtle bodies of ghost or ethereal vessels IN THE MATERIAL WORLD are also REAL. But it must be understood that that reality created by the baddha jiva contained in those ethereal and biological vessels, fades away or perishes.



The full potential of what is REAL, of what is REALITY is that it is imperishable, and never fades away, which means it is always in the perpetual state of originality.



So how are we to understand that our dreams on the absolute level are also real and transmitted as the nitya-baddha conscious state to the material creation? Now we cannot compare the dreams we have in our material body that are illusion, with the dreams we have in our pure state initiated by free will and choice.



Nitya-siddha is when we are in our natural pure state of REALITY, eternally liberated in Goloka, serving God or Krishna.



Nitya-baddha state is when we are in our unnatural impure state of TRANSITORY REALITY eternally conditioned in the mahat tattva, serving one's selfish interests, unaware of their PERMANENTLY REAL nitya-siddha authentic self in Goloka.



The original and eternal position of all living individuals, known as the marginal living entities, is their perpetual rasa (devotional mood) nitya-siddha-svarupa body that is eternally serving Krishna in the ‘eternal present’ where there is no past or future, as previously explained.



This means there is also no decay, impermanence birth, disease, old age, death and forgetfulness in the perpetual REALITY Kingdom of God known as Goloka-Vrndavana and the Vaikuntha planets.



If we are to correctly understand that we all originate from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, such realizations are only possible by the mercy of Srila Prabhupada, and without his mercy one will never understand. Everything Srila Prabhupada said and wrote must be understood in the context of His books, lectures, morning walks, and classes.



This is the correct way to appreciate the criteria of guru, sadhu, and shastra. All interpretations of his teachings that fail these criteria of guru, sadu and shastra are to be considered bogus; therefore everything in this book is based very clearly on the teachings of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami.



Lord Krishna or the Supreme Personality of Godhead is always the absolute truth with an all-attractive Vigraha or Bodily Form yet is also simultaneously everywhere personally and impersonally within His creation.



Krishna is always as His beautiful Syamasundara form that never vacates from His Goloka-Vrndavana central abode, yet is simultaneously manifested as unlimited four-armed Vishnu Forms throughout the Vaikuntha planets. Both these abodes are the perpetual Kingdom of Krishna that exists in the eternal present devoid of past and future, as the Brahma Samhita tells us.



Vishnu and Lakshmi in the Vaikunthas where their devotees are in the mood of servitorship, and Radha Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana where Krishnas mood is more intimate with His devotees in the disposition of friendship and conjugal love.



Even though Krishna is eternally in His central Goloka-Vrndavana Planet that resembles a lotus flower as shown above, He also resides as Vishnu in the surrounding Vaikuntha Planets.



Krishna further expands Himself from His Sankarsana or Balarama bodily form to the sleeping Maha-Vishnu form who builds His own abode in one corner of the Spiritual Sky, as shown above that is called the mahat-tattva or material creation.



Maha-Vishnu is never affected by this dark cloud OF TEMPORARY OR FADING REALITY He has constructed in His corner of the Spiritual Sky (shown above) that exists in a completely different dimensional phenomenon of time and space than the Vaikuntha planets.



In His mahat-tattva (jada-jagat- lifeless world) there is also eternal time however, it is divided by past, present and future which has the by-product phenomenon of impermanence, decay birth and death that does not exist in the perpetual ‘present’ in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha (cid-jagat) which makes up the majority of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti.



The original and eternal position of all living individuals, known as the marginal living entities is their perpetual rasa (devotional mood) nitya-siddha-svarupa body, that is eternally serving Krishna in the ‘eternal present’ where there is no past or future, as previously explained.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

The Vedic literature confirms that we cannot conclusively understand the Supreme Being by logic alone. The Bhagavad- gita declares that the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, who is the creator of both this universe and the spiritual world beyond it, can be understood only by His mercy, when He is pleased to reveal Himself to His faithful devotees. Although our logic and mental gymnastics cannot rise to embrace the Lord, He can by His omnipotence pierce through the uncertainty and ignorance of His faithful servants and show Himself to them.

While confirming the fallibility of human reasoning, however, the Vedas do not recommend that we abandon reason. If we lack a deep philosophical understanding of God, our faith in Him tends toward sentiment and fanaticism and easily falls prey to atheistic arguments. The Vedic literature therefore includes all manner of logical arguments—including the argument from design—indicating that the universe is the work of a supremely powerful person. But the Vedic literature goes further as well, describing in detail the stages of creation, the age and dimensions of the universe, the purpose of the creation, and the origin of the material elements. The Vedic literature, in other words, not only proclaims “God created” but also tells us how and why He created.

To begin with, the Vedic literature asserts that the Supreme Lord is not obliged to participate directly in the creative work. While theists sometimes conceive of God as an extremely hardworking old man, who has little time off from His duties as creator, the Vedic literature explains that God creates by His desire alone, without having to exert Himself in the least. Since He possesses unlimited power and wealth, He can, like any wealthy person, get others to do the work for Him. If a wealthy financier wants to construct an office building, he doesn’t do everything himself. He conceives a general plan or chooses a building site, then hires lawyers, architects, engineers, contractors, and so on to execute His will. The financier doesn’t have to dig the foundation, pour the cement, or lay the bricks.

Like the wealthy financier, the Supreme Lord is aloof from the work of creation, but just how He delegates the creative duties, and to whom, is unique. Unlike ordinary persons, Krishna can expand Himself into innumerable forms, known as plenary expansions, who are equal to Him in power and opulence. These expansions are all the same Personality of Godhead, Krishna Himself, and yet at the same time They are individuals with independent thoughts and actions. Brahma-samhita gives the analogy that just as one candle can light many other candles, each with the same power to illuminate, so Krishna, the original Personality of Godhead, can expand Himself into innumerable plenary forms and still maintain His identity as the supreme, original person.

A person’s appearance on millions of television screens at once partially illustrates Krishna’s power to expand, the difference being that the television expansions are only images of the original person and must move and speak as that person does, whereas Krishna’s expansions, although non-different from Him, can act as They please. They are not mere images, but complete individuals.

While the wealthy financier must employ others to fulfill his desires, Krishna creates the universe through these individual expansions of His own self. Further elucidating this transcendental phenomenon, the Svetashvatara Upanishad explains that to achieve our goals, we rely on three attributes, knowledge (jnana), strength (bala), and activity (kriya). To construct a large building, for example, the architects and engineers need sufficient knowledge of the building sciences, the construction company must have sufficient strength in the form of manpower and machines, and everyone has to engage in various activities. The Supreme Lord, however, possesses within Himself all knowledge, all strength, and all potential to act and can therefore accomplish anything He wants. By investing these powers in His various expansions. Krishna effortlessly executes the business of creation. The financier works through his money, while Krishna works through His personal expansions and energies.

Krishna’s ability to expand Himself is inconceivable—beyond the range of ordinary logic. But it is inconceivable only in that we human beings cannot do it and have not seen anyone else do it. Otherwise, accepting that God is all-powerful, nothing He does is inconceivable. Rather, His apparently inconceivable attributes serve as testimony to His omnipotence. Therefore the Vedic literature, by describing Krishna’s attributes in detail, does not preclude a logical approach to understanding the Supreme Lord, but rather draws our use of logic onto a higher, transcendental platform.

Krishna’s first expansion for the creation is Maha- Vishnu, who begins by manifesting the material elements from His transcendental body. Modern scientists will object to the mention of a creator. The material energy is eternal, they say, so why bring in God? But the Vedic literatures respond that Maha-Vishnu is also eternal and that the material elements are His eternal energy. God and His energy are like the sun and the sunshine, which exist simultaneously, although one is the origin of the other. Both God and the material energy are eternal, and yet God is the source of the material energy.

We might also wonder how Maha-Vishnu could perform the gigantic act of creating all the material elements without becoming totally depleted, dispersing Himself into the elemental creation. Materially speaking, when we take something from a particular source, we gradually exhaust that source. Withdraw money from your bank account, and the balance goes down. Pour water from a glass, and the glass empties. Take milk from a cow, and the cow gradually dries up—unless she can replenish her supply from a pasture or feed bin. Since God is by definition the source of everything, there is nothing outside of Him to replenish Him. So what happens to Maha-Vishnu when He creates the material elements from Himself?

The Ishopanishad says that nothing happens to Him at all. Maha-Vishnu is unaffected and unchanged, even while supplying an unlimited quantity of elements. How could this be? Because depletion and exhaustion are properties of matter. Maha-Vishnu, however, is not matter, but pure spirit, and therefore He has no material properties. He produces the complete cosmic manifestation from His own form, yet remains perfect and complete. As Krishna expands into Maha-Vishnu without changing His form or identity, so Maha-Vishnu creates the material elements, yet remains complete in Himself.

The Srimad-Bhagavatam informs us that from the material elements Maha-Vishnu produces not one, but innumerable universes, or, rather, universal shells. These gigantic shells are hollow spheres. The lower half is filled with water, and the upper half is—at least initially—empty. The Bhagavatam also states that our particular universe is the smallest of all the universes, and yet the space inside the shell measures four billion miles in diameter, while the shell itself is billions of miles thick.

Maha-Vishnu expands His personality and enters each universe as Garbhodakasayi Vishnu. Garbhodakasayi Vishnu then generates Brahma, the first living entity in the universe.

Although Lord Brahma is an eternal, individual person, he is not a plenary expansion of the Lord. He, like you and me, is a jiva-tattva expansion, in quality equal with Krishna but quantitatively minute. The jiva-tattva expansions are part and parcel of Krishna, and as such their eternal, blissful function is to render loving service to Him. In fact, they have no other function, just as a finger has no other function than to render service to the entire body. When the jiva souls are separated from the eternal service of Lord Krishna, they lose their eternal blissful nature, just as a finger loses its very life when severed from the body.

Before coming to the material creation, the jiva souls live in the eternal spiritual world, which lies beyond the material universes. There they act in their relationships as servants, friends, and associates of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna. Since these relationships with Krishna are based solely on love, however, the jiva souls have a minute degree of independence: they can choose to remain subordinate to the all-powerful Supreme Person, or they can desire to neglect His service and become independent lords themselves. Without this choice, this freedom to serve or not to serve, there is no question of loving God, since love is necessarily an act of free will. A minority of jiva souls, misusing their independence, desire to enjoy life without Krishna.

It is to fulfill—as well as to reform—this unnatural desire of a relatively small number of jivas that Lord Krishna creates the material world. Walled within the shells of material universes, the independently-minded jivas are awarded bodies in any of the millions of species and are allowed to forget their eternal life of bliss and knowledge with Krishna. According to Bhagavad-gita, a jiva soul is situated in each living body just as a driver is situated in an automobile. The driver is different from his car, although he directs its movements. Similarly, the jiva soul, although doggedly trying to enjoy a body made of the material elements, is separate from it. Each kind of body—from the microbe to the human being—affords the jiva a particular kind of sense enjoyment, a different means for trying to satisfy his godless longings.

Within each of the innumerable universes, Garbhodakasayi Vishnu expands as Kshirodakashayi Vishnu, who then expands Himself unlimitedly to enter the hearts of all the living entities in His particular universe. This expansion of Krishna is known as Paramatma, the Supersoul, who accompanies each jiva soul in his search for material pleasure. In the Gita, Lord Krishna says that, as the Supersoul. He directs the jivas’ search by supplying them with memory, knowledge, and forgetfulness. Al death, the jiva soul is taken from his present body and prepared for his next birth in one of the 8,400,000 species. All this is arranged by the Lord in the heart. The human body is just suitable for austerity, self-realization, and rewakening Krishna consciousness, but if a human being acts and desires like an animal, he is allowed, in his next life, to enjoy in the body of an animal.

In marked contrast to the jiva soul, the Supersoul, although situated within the material body, is never controlled by a desire to enjoy matter. Krishna and His expansions are the controllers of the material energy, whereas the jiva, as long as he desires to forget Krishna, is controlled by the same energy. In the Upanishads the jiva soul and the Supersoul are compared to two birds sitting in the same tree of the body. One Bird (the jiva) tries to enjoy the fruits on the tree—material pleasures—forgetting the other bird (the Supersoul), who is patiently watching. The Supersoul observes and directs the jiva’s activities, unaffected by material desire. Only the jiva souls assume material bodies and try to enjoy matter.

We all have experienced, however, that this material world is not a place of unadulterated enjoyment. In fact, it is sometimes argued that even if there is a God. He could not he good or just. since His creation is filled with disease, old age, death, and many other miseries. Krishna, however, creates the material world not just for our independent sense enjoyment, but also to remind us that enjoyment outside of His service is illusory. When a man goes mad, forgetting his friends, relatives, and his own self, whatever enjoyment he experiences in that maddened state is worthless. In the same way, the jiva souls have forgotten their eternal relationship with their dearmost friend, Krishna. Until they reestablish that relationship, they will be able to realize but a small fraction of their potential for happiness, even if they acquire wealth, fame, beauty, education, and other temporary material advantages. The material desires are designed to remind the jiva that the material creation is foreign to him, and thus they evince God’s concern for our true welfare. The jiva who comes to his senses and practices Krishna consciousness can very quickly return to the spiritual world.

Lord Brahma, the first jiva soul in each universe, is in charge of constructing all the planets and planetary systems. He is also in charge of creating the 8,400,000 species of life, including aquatics, insects, plants, birds, animals, and human beings. Inspired and empowered by Garbhodakashayi Vishnu, Brahma assembles the creation using the material elements. Starting from just above the waters of the ocean that fills halt the universe and extending up to his own planet in the topmost reaches of the dome of universal space, Brahma constructs fourteen planetary systems, one above the other. The earth planet is in the seventh of those fourteen planetary systems.

Brahma doesn’t create his own materials—the elements—and even in manipulating them he is dependent on Lord Vishnu for guidance and inspiration. Nor does Brahma create the life which animates each body, for life is not the result of a combination of the material elements. Brahma only assists in creating the bodily vehicles, while the life, the eternal jiva souls, is supplied by the Supreme Lord.

Of the many differences between this short description of Brahma’s creation and currently popular scientific descriptions, two are especially important. The first is that the Vedic literature portrays the original creature in each universe as highly intelligent, more so than even the greatest modern scientist. Brahma’s intelligence, and his resultant creative accomplishments, are surpassed only by Lord Vishnu Himself. Modern scientists, on the other hand, assert that the original creature in the universe was a microbe, and that the forefathers of modern man were apes and cave- dwellers.

The second contrast is that the Vedic literature asserts that all species were produced more or less simultaneously at the beginning of the creation, while popular evolutionary theory holds that the species have gradually evolved. According to the evolutionists, aquatics evolved into land animals and land animals evolved—only a relatively short time ago—into human beings. Evolutionists acknowledge, however, that one of the many flaws in their theories is that there is still—more than a century after Darwin’s debut—no fossil record showing one species evolving from another. For dedicated Darwinists this lack of evidence is only an impetus to revamp their theories. But for the dedicated devotee of Krishna it is a confirmation of the Vedic version that all species of life, including the civilized human beings, have existed since the dawn of creation.

In this connection it is also interesting to note the Vedic calculations of the age of the universe. The Vedic literature states that Lord Brahma lives for one breath of Maha-Vishnu. When Maha-Vishnu exhales, the material elements and universes emanate from Him, and when He inhales, the universes are destroyed and merge back into His body. Thus the universes and their respective Brahmas are created and destroyed with every breath of Maha-Vishnu. The entire cycle—one breath of Maha-Vishnu, or one lifetime of Brahma—takes 310 trillion solar years. According to Srimad-Bhagavatam, Brahma’s life is half over at present, which means that this universe has existed, along with all the species, for 155 trillion years.

There are many other contrasts between the Vedic version of creation and other versions—both theistic and atheistic. The Bhagavatam and other Vedic texts analyze the relation of time to the universe and to the Supreme Lord, the role and development of each material element, the origin of gravity, and many other details of the creation. At each step the Vedas reveal a unique understanding of the creative process.

Many people will argue that few if any of the Vedic descriptions can be scientifically proven. But neither can they be “scientifically” disproven. How can you prove or disprove the gigantic form of Maha- Vishnu?

And why should we not at least consider the Vedic literature as evidence? It is the oldest, most voluminous, and most consistent body of literature known to man, and it contains information not only of the creative process, but of every science human society needs, including medicine, economics, and so on. By its comprehensive nature alone, the Vedic literature deserves serious study by researchers in every field.

Devotees of Krishna accept Vedic statements as evidence—as axiomatic truths—not due merely to the length and detail of the Vedic texts, but because the author of the Vedas is Krishna. In the Bhagavad-gita Krishna says, “By all the Vedas, I am to be known. Indeed, I am the compiler of Vedanta, and I am the knower of the Vedas.” For the devotees, at least, statements made by the Absolute Truth are perfect evidence, irrefutable proof.

 

[RJM]

The place on earth where the word Guru is used ... is also used to refer to the Teacher.

So, the point is: who tells you that the Hubble Space Telescope images are bogus? Was this the opinion of Srila Prabhupada? Did he speak on the subject?

I have no problem with the idea of learning from a wiser person. But the problem is believing everything my teacher tells me. Blindly.

You posted some NASA Apollo 16 and 17 pics of a moon landing site. You obviously believe the moon landings were faked? Ok, lots of people do. But I am interested in where do you get this information? Did Srila Prabhupad say anything about it?

When we study it we profess our faith in our esteemed Guru!

Because that would cause me to doubt the judgement of Srila Prabhupada, whom I greatly respect. Has there been any consultation with people who analysed the moon rocks, etc?

 

[Cino]

I will miss him. Too bad. He'd make a good case study IMO.

That comes with the name, it seems.

Once, twice a year---
Vaguely thus word they:
"Cino?" "Oh, eh, Cino Polnesi
The singer is't you mean?"
"Ah yes, passed once our way,
A saucy fellow, but . . .
(Oh they are all one these vagabonds),
Peste! 'tis his own songs?
Or some other's that he sings?
But *you*, My Lord, how with your city?"

https://www.best-poems.net/ezra_pound/poem6490.html

 

[Cino]

Although our logic and mental gymnastics cannot rise to embrace the Lord, He can by His omnipotence pierce through the uncertainty and ignorance of His faithful servants and show Himself to them.

Well? Are you a faithful servant? What did you see?

 

[powessy]

Ok, I would like to answer too, because we have gone on from the Kalam discussion:

But while it's correct that darkness is the absence of light, it is incorrect to say that light is the absence of darkness. Close yourself in a dark cupboard and tape up all the cracks so that no light can enter, that is absolute darkness. It cannot get any darker. There is no light at all. But if you flick a lighter, you will be able to see. A candle will be brighter: 10 candles, 10 light bulbs, a sun, 10 million suns -- there is no end to light?

Is 'nothingness' the state between the inbreath and the outbreath?

There needs to be another word then, to substitute for 'nothing'?

EDIT:
Many faiths teach that the essential yin/yang duality that is nature, was/is emanated from a condition of Spirit beyond nature, where the duality does not exist ...

I see things many cannot, I see minds that I believe forms life how life all started. I see minds that blink in and out of existence, something here and then nothing here over and over again millions and millions of them. They bring time across and try to become it and in the transference across something and nothing they force life to begin. Perhaps it is not nothing perhaps it is you are just nothing here or you are something here, many timelines.

There is a mesh that encompasses all things it is a fabric of sorts made of geometric shapes constantly shifting and changing as I see it, in meditation it is a mind that you can ask questions of and it can also teach you things if you know what to ask it or how. I can also see larger minds with hundreds of life forms in them and some with many more then that like a cornucopia of time. These minds also teach in imagery and in thoughts about thoughts that can form dreams and can create complex forms within themselves to show things they try to understand.

The light/dark was just to say one is absent of the other but both exist, the inbreath and outbreath are separate and do not occur together at once. I see nothing and watch them take form to fill with something and then become the thing they are trying to understand, how to describe this would be like seeing a pile of black sand each granule a part of a group of minds that find something to figure out then become it. You are both something and nothing together to become yourself here and in your life you will keep becoming nothing here and something there. Perhaps it is just this transference that is something and nothing, the destruction of a star or the death of anything that moves across into nothing here. You are looking for the absence of something to define nothing wouldn't that just mean it is not here?

Powessy

 

[Bhaktajan II]

who tells you that the Hubble Space Telescope images are bogus?

This is my own inference. BTW the Hubble is now done twice its life expectancy. It has only one gyroscope working. It is also a a true camera but produces extrapolated images via multiple sensor's data.

Where are the most basic photos of earth and the neighboring moon. They haven't shown us a photo of the sun and moon over behind the earth!

 

[Bhaktajan II]

believing everything my teacher tells me. Blindly.

The famous drill instructor said "Kill or be killed"... yet no real practice until you're out in the field and have to think fast...borne out of blind faith until encountered in the flesh.

We blindly "fly" on planes that we put blind faith in [do you interview your airplane pilots and crew? Same goes for Bus and taxi and train drivers and pedicabs too. When you cross the street you suppose that the truck barrelling down will duly heed the red light. So to, the oversized Truck passes under a bridge that is too low. Insurance companies pay out or collect on blind-confidence all the time. Drunk drivers steer blindly.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

You posted some NASA Apollo 16 and 17 pics of a moon landing site. You obviously believe the moon landings were faked? Ok, lots of people do. But I am interested in where do you get this information? Did Srila Prabhupad say anything about it?

True coincidence: I just heard this interview with a LA Times reporter from 27-12-1968:
http://causelessmercy.com/a/AUDIO/M...26_Press-LA_Times--Lunacy_of_Moon_Mission.mp3

This is an interview I have a recording of. I found it on line. Note that it is mis-labeled inre the date.

SP didn't expound extensively about the Nasa-moon issue because it wasn't his motive to do so. But since it is mentioned in the Hindu texts he was asked.

IMO there are many obvious rudimentary considerations that cast doubt: ie how to escape the gravity of the outer atmosphere. Since radio waves bounce off the out stratosphere ...things tend to stay within the earths limits. Then there is the idea of Opposite-and-equal-reaction ...meaning imo, how can a booster rocket propel itself when its rocket propulsion is pushing against nothing in empty space? I can swim in water but I cannot swim in air. The displacement of one energy has no place to push against, so I cannot see how to make millage when there is no traction.
Then there is the whole temperature issue ---which is even stranger to me when coupled with the earth bound contradictions:
When standing on earth we are in given temperature...but when we rise into the stratosphere [closer to the Sun] we will be freezing...yet in space we are in minus zero temperature...but when fully exposed to the Sun we get sun burn ---so which is it?

Because that would cause me to doubt the judgement of Srila Prabhupada, whom I greatly respect. Has there been any consultation with people who analysed the moon rocks, etc?

I can report to you with great certainty that this subject was usually brush-off the topic and un-important...and thus using the "un-likely" goal to be a hoax due to what IS mentioned in the Vedas [ie: the the Moon is further then we scientifically think]. It is the Vedas that gives evidence that any moon trip is beyond attainment by mechanical means. Any thing the SP claims is simply data found in the Vedic literatures. That is why SP is given any credence at all.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Robert Oppenheimer saidupon seeing the successful Atomic bomb test: "I am reminded of the words of Vishnu spoke in the Bhagavad-gita: Time I am, the great destroyer of the worlds."

Although our logic and mental gymnastics cannot rise to embrace the Lord, He can by His omnipotence pierce through the uncertainty and ignorance of His faithful servants and show Himself to them.

In the Song of God

Bhagavan uvacha [Godhead said]:
7.6—Of all that is material and all that is spiritual in this world, know for certain that I am both the origin and the dissolution.

7.7—There is no truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread.

7.8—I am the taste of water, the light of the sun and the moon, the syllable Om in the Vedic mantras; I am the sound in ether and Ability in man.

7.9—I am the original fragrance of the earth and I am the heat in fire. I am the life of all that lives,and I am the penances of all ascetics.

7.10—Know that I am the original seed of all existences, the intelligence of the intelligent, and the prowess of all powerful men.

7.11—I am the strength of the strong, devoid of passion and desire. I am sex life which is not contrary to religious principles.

7.12—Know that all states of being--be they of goodness, passion or ignorance--are manifested by My energy. I am, in one sense, everything, but I am independent. I am not under the modes of material nature, for they, on the contrary, are within Me.

7.13—Deluded by the three modes [goodness, passion and ignorance], the whole world does not know Me, who am above the modes and inexhaustible.

7.14—This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it.

7.15—Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, who are lowest among mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion, and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons do not surrender unto Me.

7.16-17—Four kinds of pious men begin to render devotional service unto Me--the distressed, the desirer of wealth, the inquisitive, and he who is searching for knowledge of the Absolute. Of these, the one who is in full knowledge and who is always engaged in pure devotional service is the best. For I am very dear to him, and he is dear to Me.

7.18-19—All these devotees are undoubtedly magnanimous souls, but he who is situated in knowledge of Me I consider to be just like My own self. Being engaged in My transcendental service, he is sure to attain Me, the highest and most perfect goal. After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.

7.21-22—I am in everyone's heart as the Supersoul. As soon as one

desires to worship some demigod, I make his faith steady so that he can devote himself to that particular deity. Endowed with such a faith, he endeavors to worship a particular demigod and obtains his desires. But in actuality these benefits are bestowed by Me alone.

7.23—Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the planets of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme planet.

7.24-25—Unintelligent men, who do not know Me perfectly, think that I, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, was impersonal before and have now assumed this personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is imperishable and supreme. I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My internal potency, and therefore they do not know that I am unborn and infallible.

7.26—As the Supreme Personality of Godhead, I know everything that has happened in the past, all that is happening in the present, and all things that are yet to come. I also know all living entities; but Me no one knows.

7.30—Those in full consciousness of Me, who know Me, the Supreme Lord, to be the governing principle of the material manifestation, of the demigods, and of all methods of sacrifice, can understand and know Me, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, even at the time of death.

8.4-5—The physical nature, which is constantly changing, is called adhibhuta [the material manifestation]. The universal form of the Lord, which includes all the demigods, like those of the sun and moon, is called adhidaiva. And I, the Supreme Lord, represented as the Supersoul in the heart of every embodied being, am called adhiyajna [the Lord of sacrifice]. And whoever, at the end of his life, quits his body, remembering Me alone, at once attains My nature. Of this there is no doubt.

9.4—By Me, in My unmanifested form, this entire universe is pervaded. All beings are in Me, but I am not in them.

9.5—And yet everything that is created does not rest in Me. Behold My Mystic opulence! Although I am the maintainer of all living entities. I am everywhere. I am not part of this cosmic manifestation. My ‘Self’ is the very source of creation.

9.6-11—Understand that as the mighty wind, blowing everywhere, rests always in the sky, all created beings rest in Me. At the end of the
millennium all material manifestations enter into My nature, and at the beginning of another millennium, by My potency, I create them
again. The whole cosmic order is under Me. Under My will it is automatically manifested again and again, and under My will it is
annihilated at the end. All this work cannot bind Me. I am ever detached from all these material activities, seated as though neutral. This
material nature, which is one of My energies, is working under My direction, producing all moving and nonmoving beings. Under its rule
this manifestation is created and annihilated again and again. Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My
transcendental nature as the Supreme Lord of all that be.

9.16—I am the ritual. I am the sacrifice. I am the offering to the ancestors. I am the healing herb. I am the transcendental chant. I am the Butter and the Fire and the Offering.

9.17—I am the father of this universe. I am the mother. I am the support and the grandsire. I am the object of knowledge. I am the purifier and the syllable ‘Om'. I am also the Rg, the Sama and the Yajur Vedas.

9.18—I am the goal. I am the sustainer. I am the master, the witness, the abode, the refuge, and the most dear friend. I am the creation and the annihilation. I am the basis of everything, the resting place and the eternal seed.

9.19—I give heat. I withhold and send forth the rain. I am immortality. I am also death personified. Both spirit and matter are in Me.

9.22—Those who always worship Me with exclusive devotion, meditating on My transcendental form--to them I carry what they lack, and I preserve what they have.

9.24—I am the only enjoyer and master of all sacrifices.I am equal to all.

9.29—Whoever renders service unto Me in devotion is a friend, is in Me, and I am also a friend to him.

10.2—Neither the hosts of demigods nor the great sages know My origin or opulences, for, in every respect, I am the source of the demigods and sages.

10.4-5—Intelligence, knowledge, freedom from doubt and delusion, forgiveness, truthfulness, control of the senses, control of the mind, happiness and distress, birth, death, fear, fearlessness, nonviolence, equanimity, satisfaction, austerity, charity, fame and infamy--all these various qualities of living beings are created by Me alone.

10.6—The seven great sages and before them the four other great sages and the Manus [progenitors of mankind] come from Me, born from My mind, and all the living beings populating the various planets descend from them.

10.7—One who is factually convinced of this opulence and Mystic power of Mine engages in unalloyed devotional service; of this there is no doubt.

10.8—I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me.

10.9—The thoughts of My pure devotees dwell in Me, their lives are fully devoted to My service, and they derive great satisfaction and bliss from always enlightening one another and conversing about Me.

10.10—To those who are constantly devoted to serving Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me.

10.11—To show them special mercy, I, dwelling in their hearts, destroy with the shining lamp of knowledge the darkness born of ignorance.

10.19—My opulence is limitless.

10.20—I am the Supersoul seated in the hearts of all living entities. I am the beginning, the middle and the end of all beings.

10.21—Of the Adityas I am Visnu. Of lights I am the radiant sun. Of the Maruts I am Marici. Among the stars I am the moon.

10.22—Of the Vedas I am the Sama Veda. Of the demigods I am Indra, the king of heaven. Of the senses I am the mind. In living beings I am the living force [consciousness].

10.23—Of all the Rudras I am Lord Siva. Of the Yaksas and Raksasas I am the Lord of wealth [Kuvera]. Of the Vasus I am fire [Agni]. Of mountains I am Meru.

10.24—Of priests know Me to be the chief, Brhaspati. Of generals I am Kartikeya. Of bodies of water I am the ocean.

10.25—Of the great sages I am Bhrgu. Of vibrations I am the transcendental "Om”. Of sacrifices I am the chanting of the holy names [japa]. Of immovable things I am the Himalayas.

10.26—Of all trees I am the banyan tree. Of the sages among the demigods I am Narada. Of the Gandharvas I am Citraratha. Among perfected beings I am the sage Kapila.

10.27—Of horses know Me to be Uccaihsrava, produced during the churning of the ocean for nectar. Of lordly elephants I am Airavata. Among men I am the monarch.

10.28—Of weapons I am the thunderbolt. Among cows I am the surabhi. Of causes for procreation I am Kandarpa, the god of love. Of serpents I am Vasuki.

10.29—Of the many-hooded Nagas I am Ananta. Among the aquatics I am the demigod Varuna. Of departed ancestors I am Aryama. Among the dispensers of law I am Yama, the lord of death.

10.30—Among the Daitya demons I am the devoted Prahlada. Among subduers I am time. Among beasts I am the lion. Among birds I am Garuda.

10.31—Of purifiers I am the wind. Of the wielders of weapons I am Rama. Of fishes I am the shark. Of flowing rivers I am the Ganges.

10.32—Of all creations I am the beginning and the end and also the middle. Of all sciences I am the spiritual science of the self. Among logicians I am the conclusive truth.

10.33—Of letters I am the letter A. Among compound words I am the dual compound. I am also inexhaustible time. Of creators I am Brahma.

10.34—I am all-devouring death. I am the generating principle of all that is yet to be. Among women I am fame, fortune, fine speech, memory, intelligence, steadfastness and patience.

10.35—Of the hymns in the Sama Veda I am the Brhat-sama. Of poetry I am the Gayatri. Of months I am Margasirsa [November-December]. Of seasons I am flower-bearing spring.

10.36—I am also the gambling of cheats. Of the splendid I am the splendor. I am victory. I am adventure. I am the strength of the strong.

10.37—Of the descendants of Vrsni I am Vasudeva. Of the Pandavas I am Arjuna. Of the sages I am Vyasa. Among great thinkers I am Usana.

10.38—Among all means of suppressing lawlessness I am punishment. Of those who seek victory I am morality. Of secret things I am silence. Of the wise I am the wisdom.

10.39—I am the generating seed of all existences. There is no being--moving or non-moving--that can exist without Me.

10.40—There is no end to My divine manifestations.

10.41—Know that all opulent, beautiful and glorious creations spring from but a spark of My splendor.

10.42—With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire universe.

11.32—Time I am, the great destroyer of the worlds.

12.6-8—I am the swift deliverer from the ocean of birth and death. Just fix your mind upon Me, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and engage all your intelligence in Me. Thus you will live in Me always, without a doubt.

14.3-4—The total material substance, called Brahman, is the source of birth, and it is that Brahman that I impregnate, making possible the births of all living beings. It should be understood that all species of life are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed-giving father.

14.27—I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is immortal, imperishable and eternal and is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness.

15.12—The splendor of the sun, which dissipates the darkness of this whole world, comes from Me. And the splendor of the moon and the splendor of fire are also from Me.

15.13—I enter into each planet, and by My energy they stay in orbit. I become the moon and thereby supply the juice of life to all vegetables.

15.14—I am the fire of digestion in the bodies of all living entities, and I join with the air of life, outgoing and incoming, to digest the four kinds of foodstuff.

15.15—I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas, I am to be known. Indeed, I am the compiler of Vedanta, and I am the knower of the Vedas.

15.18—I am transcendental, beyond both the fallible and the infallible, and because I am the greatest, I am celebrated both in the world and in the Vedas as that Supreme Person.

15.19—Whoever knows Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, without doubting, is the knower of everything. He therefore engages himself in full devotional service to Me, O son of Bharata.

 

[Cino]

What leads to what...

Apparently, when we start from the seven types of atheism, we end up with entire chapters of scripture.

Quick, paper over the crack in the wall, lest the light come in?

OTOH Thomas will appreciate the role reversal

 

[RJM]

Then there is the idea of Opposite-and-equal-reaction ...meaning imo, how can a booster rocket propel itself when its rocket propulsion is pushing against nothing in empty space? I can swim in water but I cannot swim in air. The displacement of one energy has no place to push against, so I cannot see how to make millage when there is no traction.

That's just the point: when a rocket pushes fuel out of the back, it causes it to move forward. This IS the law of equal and opposite reaction. No air is required. This is just to clear up the subject of rocket propulsion.

It will be easy to google up the quick explanations for: escape velocity, radio waves, temperature and the effects of solar radiation in space, etc.

 

[RJM]

http://causelessmercy.com/a/AUDIO/M...26_Press-LA_Times--Lunacy_of_Moon_Mission.mp3

I have listened to a bit of this. It was recorded before the first moon landing.

In a way I have a similar belief. I believe that life is what animates the form. Life is not a product of the form. When we reach out into the cosmos looking for 'life' we are looking for carbon (or possibly silicon) based life that we can understand in forms visible to us, or detectable to our instruments -- natural life.

We believe that water is necessary to all forms of life, and so liquid water is top of the list in the search for extraterrestrial life. In fact it has almost reached a point that the scientific community has talked itself up to believe where liquid water oceans exist, abiogenesis of life is almost certain to happen.

However, I think all the billions of worlds may be inhabited by life suitable to each particular world, but the life-forms will mostly not be visible or detectable to us because life is not defined by form. Likewise they may not be able to 'see' us.

So life may be out there: on the moon, on Saturn -- in empty space. The dead moon we perceive, may be quite a different world from the one perceived by the life-forms that inhabit it.

Perhaps there are great angelic beings able to move between worlds -- spiritual beings of all descriptions. Great and small. Some benevolent, and some dangerous to man. In a sense our physical dimension of nature protects us from encountering danger, in the same way a young child is protected from the dangers of traffic, etc.

That is my own belief. Of course 'supernatural' beings may not normally be detectable to our five natural senses, but I believe they may make themselves known to certain people in certain cases. As @powessy suggests, time-lines and dimensions interweave and co-exist. Entities gather to form symbiotic groups, the whole greater than the sum of the parts, to progress or perish together.

There is a mesh that encompasses all things it is a fabric of sorts made of geometric shapes constantly shifting and changing as I see it, in meditation it is a mind that you can ask questions of and it can also teach you things if you know what to ask it or how. I can also see larger minds with hundreds of life forms in them and some with many more then that like a cornucopia of time. These minds also teach in imagery and in thoughts about thoughts that can form dreams and can create complex forms within themselves to show things they try to understand.

Of course, this just gets a howl of derision and a demand to 'prove it' from those who believe not only that life is a product of the body, but that consciousness is a product of the brain.

edited ...

 

[powessy]

Perhaps there are great angelic beings able to move between worlds -- spiritual beings of all descriptions. Great and small. Some benevolent, and some dangerous to man. In a sense our physical dimension of nature protects us from encountering danger, in the same way a young child is protected from the dangers of traffic, etc.

That is my own belief. Of course 'supernatural' beings may not normally be detectable to our five natural senses, but I believe they may make themselves known to certain people in certain cases. As @powessy suggests, time-lines and dimensions interweave and co-exist. Entities gather to form symbiotic groups, the whole greater than the sum of the parts, to progress or perish together.

Of course, this just gets a howl of derision and a demand to 'prove it' from those who believe not only that life is a product of the body, but that consciousness is a product of the brain.

edited ...

Angelical beings perhaps not, but minds are all around us. Man was not first here and time existed many times before us here and they have been here since that time. Man is only one of billions of lifeforms that have existed here, but men are minds that can figure things out and this I think interests them if you can find time with them.

I describe supernatural minds out there as shadows, minds with time and ones that are trapped here. The shadows as I call them are your gods, your devils and your jinn if you believe in these things. We give them time we gave them their power over us as we would find time inside of them.

The problem with proving anything is the amount of time a mind tries to use to figure things out, the more minds the more diluted the information is and harder to understand it. When I ask questions on forums like this I find minds asking questions about things, and two minds came around to ask questions. I do not get names just different experiences the first was a mind showing me a pink background and then a pair of white lady gaga shoes after which a hole opened and I observed just a normal pair of shoes. The mind was wondering why these shoes were finding time and what it meant. I tried to explain that lady gagas shoes were most likely to much for the person to have and that they were most likely one of a kind. This was a nice experience I would take this type experience any day over others I have had

The second mind showed me a mansion or a very big home that was some what aged and had lack of maintenance but the father that owned it was spending money putting in things around the house that were things that should be second he should be spending his money fixing up the house first. Any way these were interesting minds and I have fun understanding them even if they did not come from here. I would hope If I can keep teaching minds how to find time and how to understand the thoughts they have i will be able to better prove that minds are all around us and that we are more then just a body and consciousness.

Powessy