"Salvation" and "Enlightenment"

  • Thread starter CobblersApprentice
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Bhaktajan II said:
they are only revealed, by His grace, to the proper devotees. These mysteries are
gradually disclosed to the various grades of devotees in proportion to the gradual
development of their service attitude.


the exclusivity of her discretion.

Similarly god favors his devotees. The rest of life forms are free to roam.
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There is an exchange of letters between Thomas Merton and D T Suzuki as recorded in "The Hidden Ground of Love" in which Merton compares the experience of grace with zen.

In this comparison Merton speaks of "the free gift of God"......"the indeterminateness"....... "Completely spontaneous"......."outside of every law, every right and wrong, everything high or low, everything spiritual or material"...... "this breakthrough of God's freedom"......."so that, contrary to all expectation (things turn out) right side up."

Merton ends: - "This is grace, this is salvation, this is Christianity. And, so far as I can see, it is also very much like Zen."

Looking back on my own life, I cannot but agree. This contrasts with a Being only seeking the "proper" devotees, those of the "correct grade", while leaving the rest "free to roam".

And we shall "be like Him" (or Her)?

So I shall now wait for the proper "grade of person" to come along prior to offering a helping hand?
 
CobblersApprentice said:
Correct, but lack of " concern" need not imply not effecting next week or next year. I have sought to speak of the way of "non-calculation". I think a number of times I have tried to explain how, in my own world of Faith, any anticipations of the future corrupts..
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I can understand how acting for the future could be corrupt .. it all depends on our intention, no?
Yet I find it too simplistic to suggest that following 'Zen' is not an act of calculation :)
 
muhammad_isa said:
I can understand how acting for the future could be corrupt .. it all depends on our intention, no?
Yet I find it too simplistic to suggest that following 'Zen' is not an act of calculation :)
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I did not mention "acting". We were speaking of "concern"?

I actually "follow" the Pure Land way, not zen, though I indeed draw inspiration from it - if inspiration is the right word.

I have spoken here of grace, and on the Buddhist section on the Pure Land way of "no calculation". No point in repetition.

Thank you
 
Bhaktajan II said:
Funny, society prepares visitors to at least crap in their crap room bowl. Indoor plumbing is such blessing!
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Society also prepares us to listen to the man with the tie and the suit. The blessings of sartorial craftsmanship.
 
CobblersApprentice said:
I did not mention "acting". We were speaking of "concern"?

I actually "follow" the Pure Land way, not zen, though I indeed draw inspiration from it - if inspiration is the right word...
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There are scores of "flavours" of Buddhism, that have evolved from a man who originated in Nepal.
Can we really be elightened or saved by following a person of our choosing?
Isn't that a contradiction? i.e. following our desires
 
Is Salvation tied to the notion of a Fall from Grace, or Sin?

Is Enlightenment tied to the notion of Ignorance?

wil said:
Desire = G!D's will
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Is Desire a sin or a form of ignorance?
 
A Cup Of Tea said:
That would be a very broad definition of 'desire', no?
Through a broad enough definition of the word, any action could be considered an act towards a desire.
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I know what you mean .. but why should we follow another person's ideas?
Is it a matter of looking at "enlightened people", and choosing which one seems good to us?

I remember Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh "enlightend" westerners some years ago..
Rajneesh died on 19 January 1990, aged 58, at the ashram in Pune, India. The official cause of death was heart failure, but a statement released by his commune claimed that he had died because "living in the body had become a hell" after alleged poisoning in US jails
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As I recall, he promoted "free love", giving people what they wanted, so he got what he wanted :(
 
Cino said:
Is Salvation tied to the notion of a Fall from Grace, or Sin?
Is Enlightenment tied to the notion of Ignorance?

Is Desire a sin or a form of ignorance?
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Too many sins leads to our demise, if not balanced with positive actions..
Ignorance is a form of blindness. Desire is not a sin, but greed IS
 
Cino said:
Is Salvation tied to the notion of a Fall from Grace, or Sin?

Is Enlightenment tied to the notion of Ignorance?

I think Salvation simply implies we are damned and Enlightenment implies we are ignorant, without saying why or how it's that way


Is Desire a sin or a form of ignorance?
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I don't think Desire itself is a sin or ignorance, but I do think unchecked Desire does come forth from both the ignorant & un-enlightened.

Can an ignorant person be "Saved" - can an "Enlightened" person be damned or "Un-saved" ?
 
muhammad_isa said:
Too many sins leads to our demise, if not balanced with positive actions..
Ignorance is a form of blindness. Desire is not a sin, but greed IS
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Are there unforgivable sins? Is there a positive act that balances all sins?

Is there a blindness so dark it cannot be illumined? Is there a light so stark it will not cast shadows?
 
These verses speak about the sin of Shirk, meaning "to associate", "to have a partner or ascribe partnership" - it is often translated "polytheism" .
It certainly means that a person will be held accountable for Shirk, but what that means exactly is not so definite. It is understood by most Scholars that there are different degrees of Shirk and the results in the Afterlife are truly known only to Allah.

"Indeed Allah does not forgive that any partner should be ascribed to Him, but He forgives anything besides that to whomever He wishes. And whoever ascribes partners to Allah has certainly strayed into far error."

(Quran 4:116)
____________________________________

"Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly fabricated a tremendous sin."
(Quran 4:48)

 
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Arif Ghamiq said:
Can an ignorant person be "Saved" - can an "Enlightened" person be damned or "Un-saved" ?
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Hmm, are titans and angels enlightened? Prometheus, the Devil, and company were "damned" or punished in a sense.

The story of how Adam&Eve got evicted from Garden Eden for their enlightenment (tasting the fruit of knowledge) comes to mind, too.
 
muhammad_isa said:
There are scores of "flavours" of Buddhism, that have evolved from a man who originated in Nepal.
Can we really be elightened or saved by following a person of our choosing?
Isn't that a contradiction? i.e. following our desires
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Yes, many "flavours". Virtually all see "Buddha" as a "type" that is not believed to have "originated" in Nepal. Anymore, for instance, than most "flavours" of Christianity do not believe Jesus/Christ SIMPLY/ONLY originated in 1st century Palestine, or any "flavour" of Islam believe that the Koran SIMPLY/ONLY "originated" in 7th century Arabia. Time and eternity.

The relationship between being chosen and choosing is relevant to this thread. Buddhism in general does recognise this relationship, originating in the fundamental recognition that "desire" is at the heart of dukkha (suffering)

My eyes being hindered by blind passions
I cannot see the light that grasps me.
Yet the great compassion, without tiring
Illumines me always.

EDIT. The words "simply/only" added above to clarify. My apologies for any confusion.
 
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@Bhaktajan II I'm a bit slow at times. I do see where you are coming from now. Hopefully you have offered greater clarity of mind. Thank you.
 
Cino said:
Hmm, are titans and angels enlightened? Prometheus, the Devil, and company were "damned" or punished in a sense.

The story of how Adam&Eve got evicted from Garden Eden for their enlightenment (tasting the fruit of knowledge) comes to mind, too.
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Relevant for me is did the fall "shock" God or was it all a cunning plan.

:)
 
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