Sacrifice, Offering

RJM Corbet said:
There are spiritual laws. Sacrifice is the key? It can't be given or bought.
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As Cino asked at the very beginning, "what about self sacrifice?"

For Buddhism, this revolves around anatta, no-self. And the realisation of it.
 
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Maybe we need a thread on the subject of Grace? It seems Grace is simply an offer.
 
The Arabic word for "command" and/or "decree" is Amr. The Amr of Allah is mentioned throughout Quran.

"To demand" in Arabic is talaba meaning "to demand", "to desire" as well as "to seek", "to follow" and "to search". Forms of this root are used in Quran but never in reference to Allah.
 
CobblersApprentice said:
As Cino asked at the very beginning, "what about self sacrifice?"

For Buddhism, this revolves around anatta, no-self. And the realisation of it.
Click to expand...
Ok. But there's another thing about sacrifice, imo: it's not the same thing as charity. I slaughter my best valuable animal and give the meat away to a night shelter is charity; that is not the same thing as burning the meat to ash on the altar as an offering to God alone? Giving to charity is doing the 'good deed'. Giving to God alone is sacrifice. Casting bread upon the waters.

Charity doesn't come before devotion to God. Nothing does. It's the first commandment. No-one ever need even know, it's between me and God alone. Mary Magdalene 'wasted' precious ointment annointing the feet of Christ. That's not logical. It could have been sold and the proceeds given to the poor. Perhaps spiritual processes aren't always naturally logical and thus the secular humanists -- who think God is a human construct -- cannot make head or tail of it.
 
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Cino said:
Since it came up in the Salvation/Enlightenment thread -

What are your thoughts about sacrifice? Is there a difference between sacrifice and offering? What is the purpose of this gesture or practice? What about self-sacrifice?
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Without consulting definitions, in my own conceptualizing I put little difference between sacrifice and offering. Sacrifice seems a little stronger and more personal, while offering feels milder and more distant, but that's just me conceptualizing the words. Perhaps the nuances are nearly endless. There's verbs and subjects: to sacrifice, to offer; the sacrifice, the offering.

I believe these things reside deep in the human psyche, whether we are religious, non-religious, theist, non-theist, etc. Psychology has recognized the existence of projective identification in the therapeutic relationship, in which unwanted content from the client can be not only projected onto the therapist, but introjected, placed inside the therapist, to such an extent that the therapist feels invaded by a powerful alien presence, and might be made to feel like the devil incarnate, or if not religious, perhaps the worst despot to walk the earth. :) Conversely, if the content is good, the therapist might start to feel like an angel or a god (or an unnaturally good person). The therapist might then either be attacked and used as a sacrifice or blessed as a god.

If you then take the science of psychology completely out of the picture, you have sort of a dark, primal communication which has been going on between people long before there was a science of psychology. It could be seen as magick, even. We see ourselves as so modern and refined, yet underneath lies that boiling cauldron of abyssal material that boils over from time to time, seeking an object to either bless or curse.
Though we are too refined to kill outwardly (usually), we will happily do it metaphorically to the object or person upon whom our own negative material falls. This is my own convoluted look at one form of sacrifice. In my opinion, it is something we all do to a greater or lesser extent but are often unaware of. The scapegoat fits in here rather well. Often carefully chosen from outcasts, who either can't or won't defend themselves. However, if you see it as a form of communication, it can create an appreciation for the suffering of another. Nothing is like, in a sense, experiencing it first-hand in this type of communication that is without words.

Falling more under the category of self sacrifice, I believe there is another, higher form, which is the effortless sacrifice born of love. This is sacrifice in which the highest form of love (called agape in Christian circles) moves the rest of the being into action. So he metaphorically enters that burning building for the beloved, and will die with her if necessary. He won't let go, not now, not ever. It's to the death if need be. This is not born from a sense of duty, or from a law, or being a good person. It's love that loves for no reason other than that is what it is. This to me is the highest form of love, which leads to the highest form of sacrifice.

Scattered thoughts, I hope they at least make some sense.
 
Arif Ghamiq said:
In Islam there is no "burning to ash" - the meat is to be eaten.
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As long as the total giving to God -- the first commandment -- is not confused with charity, the second commandment, then yes of course it's a pity to waste what can be given to the poor. However, it's also a good thing to do at election time, etc?
 
RJM Corbet said:
Ok. But there's another thing about sacrifice, imo: it's not the same thing as charity. I slaughter my best valuable animal and give the meat away to a night shelter is charity; that is not the same thing as burning the meat to ash on the altar as an offering to God alone? Giving to charity is doing the 'good deed'. Giving to God alone is sacrifice. Casting bread upon the waters.

Charity doesn't come before devotion to God. Nothing does. It's the first commandment. No-one ever need even know, it's between me and God alone. Mary Magdalene 'wasted' precious ointment annointing the feet of Christ. That's not logical. It could have been sold and the proceeds given to the poor. Perhaps spiritual processes aren't always naturally logical and thus the secular humanists -- who think God is a human construct -- cannot make head or tail of it.
Click to expand...

From a non-theistic perspective, the ultimate "sacrifice" is the "absolute" dividing into "self" and "other".

I agree, most - if not all - "things" are not logical.

My Theory of Everything:- Love has no why. (Eckhart)
 
stranger said:
Without consulting definitions, in my own conceptualizing I put little difference between sacrifice and offering. Sacrifice seems a little stronger and more personal, while offering feels milder and more distant, but that's just me conceptualizing the words. Perhaps the nuances are nearly endless. There's verbs and subjects: to sacrifice, to offer; the sacrifice, the offering.

I believe these things reside deep in the human psyche, whether we are religious, non-religious, theist, non-theist, etc. Psychology has recognized the existence of projective identification in the therapeutic relationship, in which unwanted content from the client can be not only projected onto the therapist, but introjected, placed inside the therapist, to such an extent that the therapist feels invaded by a powerful alien presence, and might be made to feel like the devil incarnate, or if not religious, perhaps the worst despot to walk the earth. :) Conversely, if the content is good, the therapist might start to feel like an angel or a god (or an unnaturally good person). The therapist might then either be attacked and used as a sacrifice or blessed as a god.

If you then take the science of psychology completely out of the picture, you have sort of a dark, primal communication which has been going on between people long before there was a science of psychology. It could be seen as magick, even. We see ourselves as so modern and refined, yet underneath lies that boiling cauldron of abyssal material that boils over from time to time, seeking an object to either bless or curse.
Though we are too refined to kill outwardly (usually), we will happily do it metaphorically to the object or person upon whom our own negative material falls. This is my own convoluted look at one form of sacrifice. In my opinion, it is something we all do to a greater or lesser extent but are often unaware of. The scapegoat fits in here rather well. Often carefully chosen from outcasts, who either can't or won't defend themselves. However, if you see it as a form of communication, it can create an appreciation for the suffering of another. Nothing is like, in a sense, experiencing it first-hand in this type of communication that is without words.

Falling more under the category of self sacrifice, I believe there is another, higher form, which is the effortless sacrifice born of love. This is sacrifice in which the highest form of love (called agape in Christian circles) moves the rest of the being into action. So he metaphorically enters that burning building for the beloved, and will die with her if necessary. He won't let go, not now, not ever. It's to the death if need be. This is not born from a sense of duty, or from a law, or being a good person. It's love that loves for no reason other than that is what it is. This to me is the highest form of love, which leads to the highest form of sacrifice.

Scattered thoughts, I hope they at least make some sense.
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Yes, "Effortless" When all flows from Grace.
 
Here is a Sufi spin:

(Qurban). The Day of the Great Festival, the Festival of the Sacrifice (Eid al adha), is that timeless moment when the slave stands in the Presence of Oneness having naughted, annihilated, slaughtered and sacrificed his own self. If only an atom of his own self remains, he cannot stand in this Presence. Unity of Place, Unity of Time and Unity of Essence have been realized. The slave has gone, departed, left his own self. Now he has no direction (qibla). "Withersoever ye turn, there is the Face of Allah" and "Allah is and there is nothing with Him".

Murshid F. A. El Senossi
________________________________

Some see the Inward-Spiritual dimension of sacrifice as Fana (Annihilation) of self and even Tafarrugh (Vacancy).
 
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Arif Ghamiq said:
Here is a Sufi spin:

(Qurban). The Day of the Great Festival, the Festival of the Sacrifice (Eid al adha), is that timeless moment when the slave stands in the Presence of Oneness having naughted, annihilated, slaughtered and sacrificed his own self. If only an atom of his own self remains, he cannot stand in this Presence. Unity of Place, Unity of Time and Unity of Essence have been realized. The slave has gone, departed, left his own self. Now he has no direction (qibla). "Withersoever ye turn, there is the Face of Allah" and "Allah is and there is nothing with Him".

Murshid F. A. El Senossi
________________________________

Some see the Inward-Spiritual dimension of sacrifice as Fana (Annihilation) of self and even Tafarrugh (Vacancy).
Click to expand...

"The Dharma is like a raft, for crossing over not for grasping." When the "other shore" is reached, the raft can be discarded.

Until then, cling on tight! Some leap from the raft mid ocean and are lost.

On second thoughts, maybe "stay aboard" rather than "cling on tight" :p
 
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CobblersApprentice said:
"The Dharma is like a raft, for crossing over not for grasping." When the "other shore" is reached, the raft can be discarded.

Until then, cling on tight! Some leap from the raft mid ocean and are lost.

On second thoughts, maybe "stay aboard" rather than "cling on tight" :p
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I like this ! Something came to mind both times I read it :

The Hayatud-Dunya (Life of this World) is described in many ways in Quran - mostly as Ghuroor (Illusory) and as Mata'a.

Mata'a means "to carry a thing away", "comfort", "ease", "enjoyment", "provision", "household goods", "utensils" - "basic stuff for human worldly life" and can even refer to camping gear & provisions for cattle.

The idea is that this worldly life is a temporary comfort - something needed just for now while on the journey to a more permanent existence. A brief enjoyment to which we are not to become attached.

Anyway, that's what come to mind when reading it.
 
Cino said:
Since it came up in the Salvation/Enlightenment thread -

What are your thoughts about sacrifice? Is there a difference between sacrifice and offering? What is the purpose of this gesture or practice? What about self-sacrifice?
Click to expand...
Religiously speaking, the idea of sacrifice and offering are in many ways interchangeable. In my way of thinking though, there is a subtle difference. Sacrifice is giving up what one has, even self for the greater good. An offering on the other hand is sharing what one has. Gratitude for God's blessing as it were.

As a Christian I subscribe to the idea that Jesus was the last and ultimate sacrifice ever necessary.

I do however, often place fruit, milk and other offerings on the alter of our Mandir by way of sharing with God, in my wife's Hindu tradition, the blessings afforded us and to show our gratitude, love and trust for the divine.
 
Arif Ghamiq said:
I like this ! Something came to mind both times I read it :

The Hayatud-Dunya (Life of this World) is described in many ways in Quran - mostly as Ghuroor (Illusory) and as Mata'a.

Mata'a means "to carry a thing away", "comfort", "ease", "enjoyment", "provision", "household goods", "utensils" - "basic stuff for human worldly life" and can even refer to camping gear & provisions for cattle.

The idea is that this worldly life is a temporary comfort - something needed just for now while on the journey to a more permanent existence. A brief enjoyment to which we are not to become attached.

Anyway, that's what come to mind when reading it.
Click to expand...

Really interesting to hear another take on this famous Buddhist parable, "The Parable of the Raft" from the Theravada Pali Canon of scripture.

In the Mahayana the teaching of the raft, the "not grasping", can be expressed as "ceasing to cherish opinions" - the operative word being "cherish" or over-identifying with them, looking to them to justify ourselves, allowing them to congeal, cementing us within a prison cell that defines us. The parable advises us to hold them lightly, allowing the movement of life and the teachings to serve their proper purpose - not ends in themselves but as help-mates to the "Other Shore".

I think the general Buddhist attitude towards "this life" is rather more radical! It is suffering (dukkha) As far as our more permanent home, as another said, Buddhism has many flavours. From "nirvana" as a "beyond" that is - simply put - incomprehensible. To the Mahayana assertion that "samsara" (this world of birth and death) IS "nirvana" - which is equally incomprehensible!!
 
I want that the "origins of sacrifice" [even just to speculate on it] to be discussed.

What do we have to base our modern understanding of ancient customs that had sacrifice as part of their credo?
 
wil said:
the norm?
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What ancient concept considered that Humans could "convey" as message or intent or ceremony so that one felt assured, "Well, we did what we could do. Let's hope God has gotten our messages".
 
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