Do we have souls?

[Faithfulservant]

I started a new thread for this because I felt it needed its own.

rasell.. you said: "Jesus taught that death was like a sleep. If our soul went to heaven, why the need for a bodily resurrection? The two concepts do not harmonise."

I do not believe that Jesus taught this.

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Man is made up of three parts: Spirit, Soul and Body [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1 Thessalonians 5:23 says, "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There is a difference between man's breath and spirit: "Thus says the Lord, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and its offspring, who gives breath to the people on it, and spirit to those who walk in it." Isaiah 42:5 [/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/font]​

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Destination After Death[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake." Philippians 1:21-24 [/font]



[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord—for we walk by faith, not by sight—we are of good courage, I say . . . and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord." 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 [/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/font]​

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Soul is Conscious After Death [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Revelation 6:9-11 "And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, 'How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?' And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, should be completed also." [/font]

​

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Obviously a person's soul is more than his breath. These robed souls under the altar, crying out to God, are not "breaths." Note that these souls are conscious after death. They were martyred and after death are very much alive in Heaven. They have the ability to cry out to God and to wear white robes. God Himself tells them that more of their brethren will join them after they are killed. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Again in Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones; and they sat upon them, and judgement was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshipped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." [/font]

​

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Additional Scriptures Indicating the Consciousness of the Soul after Death [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Job 26:5-6
Matthew 22:31, 32
Luke 16:19-31
1 Thessalonians 5:10
Isaiah 14:9-11; 15-17[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/font]​

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When the Soul Leaves the Body, the Body Sleeps [/font]



[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The term "sleep" is never applied to the soul or the spirit, but only the body. The soul and the spirit continue to exist after death. The body "sleeps" and goes back to dust. The following verses refer to the state of the body's death as sleep: [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Matthew 9:24 "He began to say, 'Depart; for the girl has not died, but is asleep.' And they were laughing at Him."[/font] [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]John 11:11 "This He said, and after that He said to them, 'Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, that I may awaken him out of sleep.'"[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Acts 7:59-60 "And they went on stoning Stephen as he called upon the Lord and said, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!' And falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, 'Lord do not hold this sin against them!' And having said this, he fell asleep." [/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Acts 13:36 "For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation fell asleep, and was laid among his fathers, and underwent decay." [/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1 Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus." [/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/font]​

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Man's Soul and Man's Spirit are More than Breath [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1 Samuel 18:1 "Now it came about when he had finished speaking to Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit to the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as himself." [/font]



[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]2 Samuel 5:8 "And David said on that day, 'Whoever would strike the Jebusites, let him reach the lame and the blind, who are hated by David's soul, through the water tunnel.' Therefore they say, the blind or the lame shall not come into the house." [/font]



[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Mark 14:34 "And He said to them, 'My soul is deeply grieved to the point of death; remain here and keep watch.'" [/font]



[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Psalm 107:26 "They rose up to the heavens, they went down to the depth; their souls melted away in their misery." [/font]



[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Luke 2:35 " . . . and a sword will pierce even your own soul to the end that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed." [/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/font]​

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Man's Spirit is what is Regenerated[/font]



[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]John 3:6-7 "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'"[/font] [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/font]​

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]God Works Through Man's Spirit [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Proverbs 20:27 "The spirit of man is the lamp of the Lord, searching all the innermost parts of his being." [/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/font]​

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Man's Spirit has: [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]INTELLIGENCE (1 Corinthians 2:11)
"For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man, which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God."
EMOTIONS (John 11:33)
"When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her, also weeping, He was deeply moved in spirit and was troubled."
[/font]​

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Soul and the Spirit are Separated from the Body at Death [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Luke 8:54-55 ". . . he, however, took her by the hand and called, saying, 'Child arise!' And her spirit returned, and she rose immediately; and He gave orders for something to be given her to eat." [/font]



[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Matthew 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both the soul and the body in hell." [/font]



[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]James 2:26 "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." [/font]



[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1 Kings 17:21,22 "Then he stretched himself upon the child three times, and called to the Lord, and said, 'O Lord my God, I pray to Thee, let this child's life return to him.' And the Lord heard the voice of Elijah, and the life of the child returned to him and he revived." [/font]

​

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The term "death" which is "thanatas" in Greek, does not mean to be non-existent or unconscious, it rather means to be separated. Some examples: [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Colossians 2:13 "And when you were dead (separated from God—not "unconscious") in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh . . . " [/font]



[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten." [/font]



[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The context of this verse is "under the sun." It is saying that the dead do not know anything that is going on "under the sun"(on earth) vss. 3, 6—after they die and are in Heaven. (Eccl. 12:7) [/font]

​

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]See also Ephesians 2:1 and Revelation 3:1
[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]These scriptures clearly teach that the soul and spirit are more than breath. People's souls and spirits are separated from their bodies when they die. The soul is conscious in Heaven after death, awaiting the resurrection of the body.

[/font]Faithful Servant​

Thanks to Pastor J. Mark Martin
​

 

[Bandit]

I have not studied this for a very long time. I will try to post once or twice in the near future. It is another complicated study to get the main idea established. I think I am seeing this about the same way you are FaithfulServant.

 

[Sacredstar]

Yes we do have souls and a spirit which I feel is different to the breath of life? Where does the breath come from? The hara the divine shrine.

On soul and spirit the wonderful Gnostic Gospel of Mary Magdalene comes to mind with an excellent narrative by Jean Yves Leloup. Mary asks Jesus how she can see him beyond the veil and he explains that it is not the soul or the spirit but the nous in between.

So what is the soul? It is the dynamic multi-dimensional energetic system within which comprises of the aura, meridians-nadi's and chakra system. What is the spirit? The divine spark of GOD which is in everyone.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

 

[rasell]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

1 Thessalonians 5:23 says, "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

[/font]

here Paul is taking of a complete sanctification, rather than going into details about the nature of our souls.

the word for soul - psuche is also translated as "persons" in other places: Acts 7:14; 27:37; 1 Pet 3:20 etc.

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

There is a difference between man's breath and spirit: "Thus says the Lord, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and its offspring, who gives breath to the people on it, and spirit to those who walk in it." Isaiah 42:5

[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/font]​

rather than being contrasting words, I would suggest they are similar ones - breath and spirit are the same thing. NIV uses breath and life.
When God breathed into Adam he became a living being.

In Genesis we have this formula - dust + breath of life = a living soul. Adam became a living soul as did the animals.

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

"For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake." Philippians 1:21-24

[/font]

After we die, the next thing we know will be Christ returning.

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

"Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord—for we walk by faith, not by sight—we are of good courage, I say . . . and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord." 2 Corinthians 5:6-8

[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/font]​

Paul expresses his wish to be with Christ, but this cannot be while he is still on earth.

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

Revelation 6:9-11 "And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, 'How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?' And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, should be completed also."

[/font]

​

Revelation is full of symbolic things.
When Genesis says Abel's blood was crying out from the ground, it was not literally. In the same way the martyr's blood cries out for justice.
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

Again in Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones; and they sat upon them, and judgement was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshipped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

[/font]

These "souls" come to life, and reign with Christ. This is soul sleep, from which they are woken in the resurrection.
​

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Man's Soul and Man's Spirit are More than Breath [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/font]

True, but the Bible describes man as one complete unit, a living soul. Once you separate spirit from body, the soul ceases to exist.
These words are used differently in Scripture, by spirit do we mean breath of life or the kind of person someone is, their character?

according to my Bible dictionary the words are used in the Bible carrying these meanings:
pneuma (spirit) = Holy Spirit, ghost, evil spirit, inner being, way of thinking, breath
psyche (soul) = inner self, life, person

so these words seem to carry similar meanings, of life, inner person. So they are used in two kinds of ways - to donate life, or to mean a persons inner being.

I think Paul was using these words in the second sense, to mean we are completely sanctufied, in our inner being.
​

Thanks to Pastor J. Mark Martin

who is Pastor Martin?

Here is my understand of death:

Jesus spoke of death as a sleep. Matthew 9:24; 27:51-52; John 11:11
The most notable is the story of Lazarus John 11:1-44.

The New Testament continues to describe death as a sleep Acts 7:60; 1 Cor 15:6,18,51; 1 Thess 4:13.

Jesus talks of the resurrection of the dead - John 5:28-29. The dead sleep until Christ returns and then are raised some to everlasting life others to everlasing destruction (death with no return).

Doesn't the bible speak of everlasting punishment?

The wages of sin is death not everlasting punishment - Rom 6:23
The earth will be completely destroyed before being remade into the new heaven and earth 2 Pet 3:10,11; Rev 21
The devil will be destroyed Heb 2:14
Jesus talked of the destruction of the soul Matt 10:28
The people will be destroyed as in the days of Noah or Lot Luke 17:26-30
The wicked will be burned up Mal 4:1

What about texts that speak of everlasting punishment such as Matt 25:46; Rev 14:11; 20:10?

This is a Hebrew expression to show that that destruction is complete, it lasts until the destruction is finished, this kind of useage can be found in other parts of scripture:
Jude 7 the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah are an example of eternal fire
Ex 21:6 the slave was to serve forever = for life
1 Sam 1:22 the child Samuel to abide in the temple forever = for life
Jonah 2:6 Jonah to be in the belly of the whale forever
Philemon 15 Paul counseled Philemon to receive Onesimus forever

The destruction of the wicked is eternal in its consequences - death with no return - also known as the second death Rev 20:14.

The idea that the soul goes staight to heaven is contrary to the teaching of the resurrection of the dead.

The Bible does not support the idea of a soul separate from the body.
Adam was created from the dust of the ground + the breath of life = living soul.
Take away the breath of life and the body returns to dust, the person ceases to exist although God can resurrect them. When Jesus returns the dead will be raised to life and given new bodies that do not decay. We will still be the same person and be recognised but without sin, death or decay. It will be like a long sleep without consciousness then we wake up to see Jesus.

Why did Jesus teach the parable of a rich man suffering in hell?

This was a parable to illustrate the need to repent now. The hearers probably believed the soul went straight to heaven or hell, Jesus' concern was to show them that they need to repent now rather than to correct their views on death. However by looking at what Jesus said about death as a sleep and the resurrection we then get a complete picture.

Does it matter as long as we get to heaven?

There is a danger that some people get caught up in spiritism, the Bible warns us against spiritism.

The OT speaks against spiritism, trying to talk to the dead.
Ex 22:18; Lev 19:31;20:6,27
Deut 18:9-13; Isa 8:19-20
1 Sam 28:3-10 the witch of Endor.


If the dead are asleep where do the messages come from?

Although there are many hoaxes, there are genuine mediums whom evil angels or demons can possess and give messages. These evil angels are familiar with the lives of the dead person and can imitate their voice, therefore they seem convincing. They can pretend to be dead saints giving good messages in order to deceive people and get control of their lives.

The Bible teaching on death means that our dead ones are asleep. The next thing they know they will wake up to the resurrection to receive either eternal life or death.

Jesus' return will be unmistakelable - like lightning that stikes in the East and is visible in the West (Matt 24). He will come in glory, the dead will be raised, this world will end, the wicked will be destroyed then God will purify the earth with fire and remake it, there will no longer be death, evil or suffering.

What about the thief on the cross, didn't Jesus promise him that he would enter paradise that day

The original manuscripts had no punctuation marks, they were inserted later, so its a matter of interpretation. either:
Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.
or
Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.


If we put the comma before today we have a problem, did Jesus go to paradise on that Friday? He died, was in the tomb on the Sabbath and was raised on the Sunday. Even then he told Mary he had not yet ascended to his Father. He did not come back as a spirit but a real person.

The Greek itself does not indicate where the comma is. Either version is acceptable.

today = semeron, an adverb which stands between two clauses

truly to you I say - today - with me you will be in the paradise

As originally the greek had no punctuation and as Greek useage permitted an adverb to appear anywhere in the sentence where the speaker wanted to place it, its impossible to determine whether today modifies "I say" or "you will be"

However Jesus taught that we would not enter paradise till he returned. John 14-1-3 I am going to prepare a place for you ... I will come again ... that where I am, there you may be also ...

According to John 20:17 on Sunday he had not yet ascended to his Father.

God is Love

A loving God is not going to leave people in a place of eternity in torment, its against the whole character of God.
God is love (1 John 4:8))

 

[Bandit]

This site has pulled a few verses on it in 4 different studies. It separates spirit, soul and body then, then puts all 3 together.
It is mostly just scripture and not too many comments.

http://www.churches.com/bible/biblestudy/abs37.html

At this point I dont think it is possible to separate spirit and soul.

We can have many spirits or be influenced by many spirits but we have only one soul. It seems like we have only one spirit also, that stays with the soul at all times. While other spirits can influence our own spirit, these other spirits would also have only one soul.

The soul seems to be the inner being (the life, the I AM) and spirit is the substance (vapor, mist-like, moving element) the soul is made out of. The spirit, seems to me, to be what MOVES the soul around.
I am not sure.

I try to insert the two into different sentences.
My SOUL is sad. My SPIRIT is sad.
He is a good SOUL. He is a good SPIRIT----sounds better if you say HE has a good spirit. LOL
God is a soul. God is a spirit.

I believe there is a place in the OT where it speaks about the SOUL of God, but we also know He IS a SPIRIT.

I am also interested in seeing if the spirit/soul goes right to heaven as in the place, or do we go to another place let's say hades (place of departed souls) and wait for the wedding and marriage supper?

It seems to me we go to a place and wait, Then join Jesus at his coming, and all go to the wedding together at the same time.
At other times it seems there are already people there with Jesus right now.

I just dont have time right now to really do a long study on it. I will jump in when I can. Sorry and good luck everyone.

Rev.5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.



Is.11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

 

[Faithfulservant]

Pastor J. Mark Martin was an ex SDA pastor who didnt believe that Ellen G. White was a prophet of God. He has since created a website to prove the invalidation of SDA doctrine. He is now an apologetics pastor with Calvary Chapel. His focus is to witness to SDA believers in hopes that they may be freed from the law and accept the grace Jesus gave to us.

http://www.sdaoutreach.org/ Pastor J. Mark Martins site

http://www.wordinlife.com/ Justin Alfred (the one who knows the bible inside out in greek hebrew and english)

These are the two that helped me with my questions.

 

[rasell]

Pastor J. Mark Martin was an ex SDA pastor who didnt believe that Ellen G. White was a prophet of God. He has since created a website to prove the invalidation of SDA doctrine. He is now an apologetics pastor with Calvary Chapel. His focus is to witness to SDA believers in hopes that they may be freed from the law and accept the grace Jesus gave to us.

http://www.sdaoutreach.org/

But what is your view?

I don't think it good to rely too heavily of others to interpret the Bible, I think we should study it for ourselves and make up our own mind.
This is what Paul praised the Bereans for.

God Bless


Marc

 

[Faithfulservant]

But what is your view?

I don't think it good to rely too heavily of others to interpret the Bible, I think we should study it for ourselves and make up our own mind.
This is what Paul praised the Bereans for.

God Bless

Marc

Thats my whole point. These men have the Holy Spirit why else would I be drawn to them? God is the only one I allow to interpret the bible for me. One could also say the same thing about Ellen G Whites interpretation of the bible. After my experience I only rely on the Holy Spirit for my interpretation. I pray and ask him for wisdom and understanding about these issues and I kid you not i will open up to a scripture that shows me without a shadow of a doubt the answer to these issues.

Both of us are sure that we are right. Discussing this with no edification of the church is not right. I would rather we discuss how glorious our Lord is and we can live in harmony with each other rather than useless bickering of the word. I have anger towards SDA that comes out when im discussing the doctrine God is telling me that its not right and I ask forgiveness and pray for healing.

Peace be with you

Faithful Servant

 

[Bandit]

Sometimes it is hard to have a 'view' as in a solid answer to everything. And we must reason together allowing the Holy Ghost to guide. The world is full of beliefs and new ones every day. Sometimes it might be on the right track and sometimes it may be from a bad influence...

Like FaithfulServant said, that is why we allow the Holy Ghost to teach. We CAN test the spirits.

When it comes to something like spirit and soul, heaven and hell and other things like it, we are never going to understand the full wisdom of God and what and how and when He makes things happen.

I have SEEN spirits.
I have been blessed, that God briefly lifted the veil here in the flesh and allowed me to see some things for my own edification. Can I explain and show others everything I have been shown? No, I can not.

So it is good to have an open mind and an honest heart and keep a gentle spirit to recieve and to deliver.
If we know all mysteries and have not Love, then it falls flat on the ground and it will not be heard by anyone.
Some things really don't matter but we can still study them.

Why do we study?

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth
​

not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
​

We have only begun to scratch the surface of Gods wisdom.

 

[bananabrain]

it is possible here that jesus may be drawing upon jewish ideas about the structure of the soul and its relationship with both the body and with G!D. judaism recognises five levels of the soul:

1. nefesh - the lowest level, that which "rests" within; associated with life, but not requiring movement, therefore that which humans share with plants as well as animals.
2. ruah - the second level, that which "blows" ; associated with consciousness, emotion and movement, therefore that which humans share with animals.
3. neshama - the third level, that of intellect and reason, consequently, the level of humans (and therefore, according to some opinions, also including that of dolphins, chimps and so on. presumably if aliens ever show up they will come in at this level)
4. hayyah - the fourth level, that soul-interface which allows us to explicitly conceive of the Divine and how we are connected to G!D.
5. yehida - the fifth and highest level, the "connection" itself by which we are actually part of the Divine - the Divine spark, if you will - that which is actually part of G!D within us.

all of these are derived from particular verses, of which the creation of Adam and that bit of isaiah are two. in terms of the sleep = death, tradition has it that sleep is equivalent to 1/60th of death, because while we are sleeping our neshama is able to leave us and go to commune with G!D or otherwise bugger about in the higher worlds (hence dreams) which is why we thank G!D (the Landlord, as it were) for returning it to us first thing in the morning.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Faithfulservant]

Thank you for that Bananabrain. Im sure he must have been talking about that structure of the soul he was Jewish after all.

 

[rasell]

Thats my whole point. These men have the Holy Spirit why else would I be drawn to them? God is the only one I allow to interpret the bible for me. One could also say the same thing about Ellen G Whites interpretation of the bible. After my experience I only rely on the Holy Spirit for my interpretation. I pray and ask him for wisdom and understanding about these issues and I kid you not i will open up to a scripture that shows me without a shadow of a doubt the answer to these issues.

Both of us are sure that we are right. Discussing this with no edification of the church is not right. I would rather we discuss how glorious our Lord is and we can live in harmony with each other rather than useless bickering of the word. I have anger towards SDA that comes out when im discussing the doctrine God is telling me that its not right and I ask forgiveness and pray for healing.

Peace be with you

Faithful Servant

Feelings can be deceptive, we can be inspired by the Holy Spirit, or our own feelings or from the Devil. So its important to check things by the Bible, that way we can be sure our feelings are right.

The Holy Spirit would not contradict what is written in the Bible.

God Bless


Marc

 

[Faithfulservant]

Feelings can be deceptive, we can be inspired by the Holy Spirit, or our own feelings or from the Devil. So its important to check things by the Bible, that way we can be sure our feelings are right.

The Holy Spirit would not contradict what is written in the Bible.

God Bless


Marc

Yes feelings can be deceptive. Im very well aware of the feelings that satan can generate. When you immerse yourself in the word and pray as much as I did and you read in the bible that darkness cannot comprehend the light and darkness cannot dwell in the light and I am meditating on the word of God. I know that Satan has no power over the interpretations the Holy Spirit gives to me. If you think that Satan can deceive Gods child as she is suffering an agony of the spirit and asking for understanding and wisdom.. then you dont know how it feels to be 100% sure in faith that God is TELLING me Im not just reading it he is TELLING me the truth.

I feel very confident in the scriptures I have given to you. I am not confident in your interpretation of the word. Every point that you made is the same ones made by every one that believes the way you do and rather than turn it into a bashing of the bibles Ive finally given it to God to deal with. Hes on the throne not you and not me. If he wants me to worship on the sabbath.. my relationship with him is so close that he would certainly tell me in one way or another. He has given me peace. REAL peace.. and not the illusion of it.

I listened to a sermon the other day and the pastor said that in these end times it would be wise to stay away from churches if you dont know what to believe. He said that apostacy is everywhere and your not safe letting MEN tell you what God says. God is perfectly able to tell you what hes saying if you clear your thoughts pray and read the word. If your beliefs make you feel good and safe then you are welcome to them. I however cannot be swayed into believing them... Ive been in that pit of soul sucking despair that church made me feel and I will never go back. God has delivered me from those bonds and In him I place my trust.

The Lord Jesus is my sabbath and in him, I rest.. everyday. When he was resurrected all things were made new through him. We are not bound by laws and church doctrines. We are freed from them.. Jesus is the way the truth and life whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.. Not ohh if you follow the sabbath laws and if you tithe and if you believe these things then you will be one of 144,000.. which is the 12 tribes of Israel... that IS literal. if it wasnt he would have said so. 12 tribes of Israel, descendents of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

"Assuredly I say to you today I will see you in heaven" he said to the thief on the cross. That is my hope.. that when I leave this earth I will be with my Savior. My hope is not laying in the ground sleeping waiting to see if I was good enough to make it to the new kingdom to be ONE of 144,000.

Something else that boggles me if that SDA was formed in what the 30's? by a man and a wife. thats saying that noone in history has the TRUE faith.. and they have no hope. Only SDA has hope for eternity because they worship on Saturday. ........... THAT is NOT what Jesus taught. And Shame on anyone that tells anyone naive enough to believe it that their hope isnt in Jesus its in a church.......OOPS here I go again. ok time to calm down. It scares me how many people there are like me that get sucked into that mindset. What a horrible burden that was for me. It makes me sad. I still pray for you and your church and will as long as God calls me to.

Faithful Servant

 

[rasell]

Yes feelings can be deceptive. Im very well aware of the feelings that satan can generate. When you immerse yourself in the word and pray as much as I did and you read in the bible that darkness cannot comprehend the light and darkness cannot dwell in the light and I am meditating on the word of God. I know that Satan has no power over the interpretations the Holy Spirit gives to me. If you think that Satan can deceive Gods child as she is suffering an agony of the spirit and asking for understanding and wisdom.. then you dont know how it feels to be 100% sure in faith that God is TELLING me Im not just reading it he is TELLING me the truth.

Saul thought he was doing God's work till he met Jesus on the damascus road. Trusting to feelings leaves us open to be deceived.
I'm not against feelings, or listening to the Holy Spirit, but if we don't test our experience with the Bible we cannot be sure that it is the Holy Spirit.

1 John 4:1
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

The Lord Jesus is my sabbath and in him, I rest.. everyday. When he was resurrected all things were made new through him. We are not bound by laws and church doctrines. We are freed from them.. Jesus is the way the truth and life whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.. Not ohh if you follow the sabbath laws and if you tithe and if you believe these things then you will be one of 144,000.. which is the 12 tribes of Israel... that IS literal. if it wasnt he would have said so. 12 tribes of Israel, descendents of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

Laws and doctrines are there to protect our relationship with God and stop us falling into error.
The misuse of the law - legalism, and false doctrine are bad. But the correct use of them brings us blessings.

"Assuredly I say to you today I will see you in heaven" he said to the thief on the cross. That is my hope.. that when I leave this earth I will be with my Savior. My hope is not laying in the ground sleeping waiting to see if I was good enough to make it to the new kingdom to be ONE of 144,000.

Daniel 12:1-2
1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel speaks of us sleeping in the dust and awakening at the resurrection.

Something else that boggles me if that SDA was formed in what the 30's? by a man and a wife. thats saying that noone in history has the TRUE faith.. and they have no hope. Only SDA has hope for eternity because they worship on Saturday. ........... THAT is NOT what Jesus taught. And Shame on anyone that tells anyone naive enough to believe it that their hope isnt in Jesus its in a church.......OOPS here I go again. ok time to calm down. It scares me how many people there are like me that get sucked into that mindset. What a horrible burden that was for me. It makes me sad. I still pray for you and your church and will as long as God calls me to.

1. we don't say no one in history has the true faith, or that only SDA's will be saved.
but we do teach that at the end as the churches become corrupt and reject the Sabbath, and unite with spiritism and messages from the supposed dead, that they will be called out into the SDA church.

2. Jesus did keep the Sabbath, and taught us to keep the law.

3. There is nothing to fear from keeping the Sabbath which Jesus did, or in seeing death as a sleep as Jesus described it.

Rev 14:12
This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

God Bless


Marc

 

[Quahom1]

From an engineering perspective, the concept of body, soul and spirit make perfect sense. My ship is the body, and within that body is the soul or potential power of the engine room (not the engine room itself, but the potential power within). But potential power is no power at all without a driving force (spirit), in this case the spark that ignites the fuel and unleashes the potential power within the engine room and finally drives the ship forward.

Man has a body and soul to power that body (the essence of man), and the body is designed to clothe the soul or essence of man. But without the spark, or spirit, man is dead in the water, or foundering on the high seas.

In Vietnam, some of the military prisoners had their "spirits" broken. They still lived, and still had personality, and character, but the joix de vivre (joy of life) was gone from them when they came home, or they never came home.

Better still is the accident victim who is living physically (the body functions on its own), however, the personality or essence of the person is gone, damaged, or comatose. The spirit will remain, but needs the soul to express its driving energy. Without the soul the spirit and body are stimied in functioning as a whole unit, while here in this plane of existence.

If a man's mind is destroyed, and his personality is gone or damaged, does he still exist? Of course. Energy (thought patterns are forms of energy), can not be created nor destroyed, only changed. In cases like that, it is up to God to gather that dispersed essence and bring it back together with at least the spirit, if not the body. Does God do that? Ask President Reagan's wife what happened a few minutes before her husband died. For a decade his mind was going. But in the last few minutes, he looked at her with such love and gratefulness, that everyone in the room knew that for a moment President Reagan was back, sound of mind and spirit. His eyes had the most brilliant spark of life and of love for his wife, according to witnesses, that it stunned everyone.

I have my body, and I have that within my body that is me, but there is a "part" of me that wants to go "home", not right now maybe, but eventually I know there is "home", and I belong there.

my two cents

v/r

Q

 

[Bandit]

Quahom1,
The perspective of a ship made things much clearer for me because we can see and/or hear all three elements at work. Where it is kind to hard to see invisible things.
You could even add to that about the spirit of a ship and how it is effected and how it effects what is around it. If this big Navy ship comes plowing through the water it will surely put a BOUNCE on any little boats nearby.
The spirit of the ship would act differently depending on the 'captain' at the wheel as in speed and sharper turns and observing what is ahead.
The spirit of the ship could be tossed by elements of a large storm.
The spirit of the ship would be altered if something is broken inside the engine room.
But the ability (life/soul) to perform well and the structure (body) is still there.

I think I prefer watching the rooster tails of water off the back over the loud engine below. I only went on one cruise and was sick the whole time. I tried being next to the engine room, I tried every level-
until I figured out I had to stay on the main deck and then I would not get sick because I had to SEE the manuevers and not just feel them.
It was awful. ha ha ha

 

[Quahom1]

Quahom1,
The perspective of a ship made things much clearer for me because we can see and/or hear all three elements at work. Where it is kind to hard to see invisible things.
You could even add to that about the spirit of a ship and how it is effected and how it effects what is around it. If this big Navy ship comes plowing through the water it will surely put a BOUNCE on any little boats nearby.
The spirit of the ship would act differently depending on the 'captain' at the wheel as in speed and sharper turns and observing what is ahead.
The spirit of the ship could be tossed by elements of a large storm.
The spirit of the ship would be altered if something is broken inside the engine room.
But the ability (life/soul) to perform well and the structure (body) is still there.

I think I prefer watching the rooster tails of water off the back over the loud engine below. I only went on one cruise and was sick the whole time. I tried being next to the engine room, I tried every level-
until I figured out I had to stay on the main deck and then I would not get sick because I had to SEE the manuevers and not just feel them.
It was awful. ha ha ha

Engineers know the secret of keeping a still stomach on tossing seas dear Bandit. You get close to the boilers/engines, and pray that the "fire" does not go out. As long as there is the perception of "forward motion", all is well, at eight bells. A Sailor's "disgrace" is to be caught foundering at sea. That is when we get really sick. The engineroom is the lowest, deepest part of the ship. It truly is the calmest part, with the least movement. Just like the soul of man. One has to get close and deep, to feel the power, and see the spark...Down in the bilges, one does not need to "see the horizon" to find peace.

The two happiest sailors I know of are Boatswain's Mates and Engineers on watch. Bos'ns see, and Engineers hear and feel. Everyone else can't or won't be in places that bring comfort. So they end up being miserable.

You do know why engineers never go up to the bridge if they can help it? Nose bleeds from the altitude really suck. Likewise Bos'ns rarely go down to the "boilers", becuase they don't know how to clear their ears of the "squeeze".

Funny thing is, both are needed to run the ship...just like different beliefs. The soul of man requires guidance from different human interfaces, or different perspectives of God.

v/r

Q