Do we need salvation?

wil said:
I think that may reach the crux of my inquiry.

Do we need to be saved?

By others...
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In the context of Religious and/or Spiritual Salvation I believe that - No we do not need to be (or even can be) saved by others - "others" as in referring to any other created, (mundane or spiritual) beings.

If in fact Self Realization is the same as Salvation - the same certainly applies - no other creature can give us Self Realization.

The Islamic concept of Self Realization is Idraak un-Nafs. Idraak comes from the root daraka meaning "to overtake", "to follow up", "to drop closely".

The form Adraka means "to reach the age of reason", "to reach maturity", "to perceive", "to realize", "to overtake", "to reach", "to attain", "to comprehend".

The form Iddraka has all these meanings along with "to reach or find the limit of a thing".

Nafs means "Self and/or Soul", "person", "mind", "inner feelings", "precious".

From this comes the idea that Idraak un-Nafs is Soul Perception - Perception of the Self. A Realization of one's inner person, inner mind as well as the development of reason and the attainment of emotional maturity.

This cannot come without the putting forth of effort by the individual - mere acceptance of a belief system will not produce Idraak un-Nafs. There are plenty of Muslims that are severely lacking Self Realization.

It is believed however, in my belief system, that our sincere efforts for this Self Realization will be rewarded by Allah An-Noor (The Light - The Illuminator).

Is this being saved ? From ignorance - I would say yes.

If a majority of people attained such a Realization would it save us from collective ignorance and therefore many hardships ? - again I would say yes.

Do we need this ? - YES !!!

Would it save us from Hell - whatever that may be ??? I'm not so sure !!!

It is curious that another form of this root is Darakun meaning "the bottom", "Abyss", "Step of decent", "Degrees of Hell".

In Surah 4:145 it is said that the hypocrites will be "fil dark-il asfala min nar" (in the lowest stage of the fire).

Hell may very well be a stage of the process of Idraak un-Nafs. The idea that "Hell Fire" may be some part of a purification process is not unknown in Islam.

And Allah knows best !!!
 
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wil said:
Anything
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Does prayer offer rescue from alcoholism or drug addiction or suicidal depression? Very often, yes. God works in wonderous ways. It is difficult to shake the faith of a person who has experienced God's rescue.

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But I suspect you are really asking do I need someone coming up to me in the street and telling me I'm going to hell unless I come to church, and then starts flipping through a Bible and tossing out quotes to back it up? But how often does this really happen?
 
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LOL the proselytizers in my neighborhood, in any neighborhood I've lived in, have learned to stay away from my house. They walk by on the other side of the street pointing telling the young acolytes that it isn't worth knocking at my door. You got to remember I'm in the US we have Jehovah's Witnesses, Baptist, evangelicals, Jews for Jesus all variety of door knockers ready to stomp their feet and knock the dust off their shoes and make me chuckle.
 
wil said:
LOL the proselytizers in my neighborhood, in any neighborhood I've lived in, have learned to stay away from my house. They walk by on the other side of the street pointing telling the young acolytes that it isn't worth knocking at my door. You got to remember I'm in the US we have Jehovah's Witnesses, Baptist, evangelicals, Jews for Jesus all variety of door knockers ready to stomp their feet and knock the dust off their shoes and make me chuckle.
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Well, it's nearly always JW's in my part of the world.How do you respond to them? Depending on how I am when they knock, I either invite them in a listen and talk for a while or, more usually, I say I'm busy with something and explain that I'm not being rude, but am just not in the mood for it.

They are always polite and say: No, that's fine. They give me a booklet to read, which I take, and then they go without forcing themselves. I usually get around to reading the tract, after a while.
 
RJM Corbet said:
Well, it's nearly always JW's in my part of the world.How do you respond to them? Depending on how I am when they knock, I either invite them in a listen and talk for a while or, more usually, I say I'm busy with something and explain that I'm not being rude, but am just not in the mood for it.

They are always polite and say: No, that's fine. They give me a booklet to read, which I take, and then they go without forcing themselves. I usually get around to reading the tract, after a while.
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I invited them in once. Ended up studying the Bible with them over several years, a while it was every week. Fascinating objects of study!
 
The Mormons don't seem to come door to door. They will start a conversation on a bus and not push on about religion at all; just general beliefs and ideas. When they go they hand you a business card. They are missionaries from America -- usually girls in their twenties. There are always two of them, and one does mostly all the talking. Apparently they all share a house together; they are required to do a year or so of missionary work overseas from the US.

There are Evangelicals around, but they don't proselytize door-to-door. It's not a very UK thing. Evangelicals, I mean. But I do know one or two who never seem to give it up on social media. Everything they say seems to be with the intention of 'spreading the faith'.

They seem take a lot of influence from the US -- almost as if they are actually living in the US. They follow American preachers on TV, etc. They are political conservatives and anti-Islamist.
 
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Around my area - Ft Worth TX - we mainly just get Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons.

I noticed wil that you didn't mention Mormons, do you not get them around your way ?
 
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Mormons and JW most frequently in Chicago, but lots of smaller, fringe(?) groups too. Usually those are on the street corners though.

Once had a Mormon Lyft driver whose partner sat in the back talking with me all ride. Thankfully I didn’t have far to go.
 
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Fellow approached me one time and asked if he could tell me about Jesus... so I asked if he could tell me about, Krishna, Shiva, or Sri Lakshmi. He said he could not, so I told him to come back when he was more spiritually enlightened. Never saw him again. :D
 
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Arif Ghamiq said:
I noticed wil that you didn't mention Mormons, do you not get them around your way ?
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Sorry, our posts crossed and mine landed before yours ... but we get very few, and they are American missionaries. I've never been approached by any others.
 
muhammad_isa said:
In my experience, yes. We all need saving from something.
..so I would say "saving from destruction by our own hands"
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Sure. And a person drowning doesn't care who's driving the boat that rescues him. But of course then that person will be in a state of gratitude for his life and susceptible to the 'rules and customs' of that boat. He may be asked to vow himself to that boat only, etc. But there is more than one boat. This can be a problem. Imo.

When a person cries to God for rescue, God is more likely to send another human being than an angel.

I believe that when a person is in a position they sincerely turn/reach to God, that God will respond, whatever time or place or faith.
 
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We've had JWs at the door ... I don't get involved. I can say a) I'm Catholic, b) I have a degree in Divinity and if that doesn't work I can always point out their their version of the Bible was a translation by a man who was shown in court to be a charlatan with hardly a minimal grasp of Koine Greek... that Romans used crosses, not stakes, etc., ... but usually I just say I'm busy ...

The last lot had two young men with an elder behind. Of the two, one had that 'rabbit in the headlights' look ... I actually think being made to go door-knocking is a form of abuse, it certainly was in his case. I took the leaflet.

At my local underground station, there's an old JW guy who's there during the rush hour. Italian. He has a ready joke for everyone, and usually forgets to hand out his leaflets. We have a chat. Lots of people stop to say hello. He calls me 'the bishop' because I was wearing a purple scarf one morning. He's the best ad for the JWs going, although i doubt they know it.
 
Thomas said:
that Romans used crosses, not stakes, etc., ...
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Yes .. but can you tell me who took Jesus off the cross?

The wiki article says:

Crucifixion is a method of capital punishment in which the victim is tied or nailed to a large wooden beam and left to hang, perhaps for several days, until eventual death from exhaustion and asphyxiation.

Furthermore, the New Testament indicates that Jesus had appeared to many people, including Thomas after his resurrection, with the disfiguring scars from the crucifixion. I find that very interesting "bishop" ;)
 
Thomas said:
The last lot had two young men with an elder behind. Of the two, one had that 'rabbit in the headlights' look ... I actually think being made to go door-knocking is a form of abuse, it certainly was in his case. I took the leaflet.
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I once had a JW man and his little daughter knock at the door. She couldn't have been more than 8 or so. The look on her face told the story... gruff voices, doors slammed. She couldn't even look up. I don't remember what I said, but the tone was friendly, and before they left she was able to look up and smile. That kind of thing stays with you for a long time. Too young, too rough an introduction to the "real world".
 
muhammad_isa said:
Yes .. but can you tell me who took Jesus off the cross?
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Joseph of Arimathea.

muhammad_isa said:
Furthermore, the New Testament indicates that Jesus had appeared to many people, including Thomas after his resurrection, with the disfiguring scars from the crucifixion. I find that very interesting "bishop" ;)
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So do I! Absolutely! ;) back atchya! :D
 
When it comes to door knockers the Mormons have benefitted a lot from their salvation/missionary work. The young elders (as I understand it) get sent out for 2 year gigs. A distance from home.. First year they are paired with another (you've seen those groups of two, white shirts, ties and bicycles) and head out door knocking with their books and pamphlets. Your second year your mentors leave the apartment, a new crew arrives that you are to mentor and train for a year, and the cycle continues. The learning curve involved in this is highly valued by the US state department and these folks are sought out for foreign posts...that training and adjustment to new environments is evidently desired beyond its measure..... Makes ya wonder how many baptists are fuller brush sales folk.
 
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wil said:
When it comes to door knockers the Mormons have benefitted a lot from their salvation/missionary work. The young elders (as I understand it) get sent out for 2 year gigs. A distance from home.. First year they are paired with another (you've seen those groups of two, white shirts, ties and bicycles) and head out door knocking with their books and pamphlets. Your second year your mentors leave the apartment, a new crew arrives that you are to mentor and train for a year, and the cycle continues. The learning curve involved in this is highly valued by the US state department and these folks are sought out for foreign posts...that training and adjustment to new environments is evidently desired beyond its measure..... Makes ya wonder how many baptists are fuller brush sales folk.
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Well, perhaps the door-to-door salesman is a part of American culture? Remember the Dagwood and Blondie cartoons:
lf

It's a part of the US go-getter attitude.
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I think the 'American' way of salesmanship is definitely reflected in their hard-sell approach to religion -- the televangelists, etc.
 
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