The Nature of Divine Intervention

[Cino]

Maybe an observer would say Moses is not experiencing divine intervention, but how would the observer know without experiencing it himself?

Thank you, and this is exactly why it is so hard to put into words what happened to me. I don't deny the burning bushes or the luminosity of the dark, or whatever imaginative descriptions of the red elephant others have come up with. They just don't apply to my experience, they don't do it justice, they are grossly misleading at best.

 

[Shanta]

I'm curious as to what people would consider qualifying as divine intervention, and any stories they have heard or experienced. I've now had 2 times in my life where I perceived divine intervention, but I'm not convinced that it's not some sort of mechanism to cope with an existence I'd mostly seen as futile

Every moment we live is sort of a divine intervention, isn't it? Life is 'living' through us. What are we without Life? Nothing. Without Life, we are not. I think you are right in thinking that maybe all else is merely a 'coping mechanism'. But is it futile? I don't think so.

 

[Shanta]

Exactly the problem I don't have.

G-d is not nature and for that matter G-d is not life. G-d is perhaps that which is mediated through our lives.

 

[RJM]

G-d is not nature and for that matter G-d is not life. G-d is perhaps that which is mediated through our lives.

So it's the kabalistic idea that 'God' bought existence into being, in order to experience 'ITself' and for the joy of returning to 'ITself'? Simply expressed ...

 

[Cino]

Every moment we live is sort of a divine intervention, isn't it?

To me, "intervention" means someone stepping in, in order to change the course of events from taking place how it ordinarily would. When someone is unconscious and has something like food in their mouth, I could clear our their mouth and position them in a stable posture, thereby intervening in the suffocation or respiratory complications that would take place otherwise.

If every moment of my life were an intervention, then that would be a reversal of the meaning of the word.

 

[Shanta]

So it's the kabalistic idea that 'God' bought existence into being, in order to experience 'ITself' and for the joy of returning to 'ITself'? Simply expressed ...

Am not familiar with Kabbalah so can't say...... But, I don't think G-d brought existence into being. I think G-d and existence are one and the same. I don't know if there is a reason why this happened (if, in fact, it is even a 'happening'). I, Shanta, believe that this life I am leading is of value because there is running in and through it something that is always existent.

 

[Shanta]

To me, "intervention" means someone stepping in, in order to change the course of events from taking place how it ordinarily would. When someone is unconscious and has something like food in their mouth, I could clear our their mouth and position them in a stable posture, thereby intervening in the suffocation or respiratory complications that would take place otherwise.

If every moment of my life were an intervention, then that would be a reversal of the meaning of the word.

Yes, I see your point. Maybe there is no such thing as a 'divine' intervention in the sense of 'someone stepping in...".

 

[muhammad_isa]

..I don't think G-d brought existence into being. I think G-d and existence are one and the same...

Good point. The physical universe was "brought into being", but existence is an infinite concept.

G-d is closer to us than our jugular vein.
...
If all the trees were pens, and all the oceans ink ..with 7 more besides .. the words of your Lord would not be exhausted.
-Al Qur'an

Glory be to G-d .. All praise is for G-d .. and there is none but He .. and G-d is the Greatest of all .. there is no power greater than G-d, the Tremendous

 

[RabbiO]

So it's the kabalistic idea that 'God' bought existence into being, in order to experience 'ITself' and for the joy of returning to 'ITself'? Simply expressed ...

Source for this position?

 

[RJM]

Source for this position?

They are traditional in depth and not happy with the modern 'boutique kaballah' of the California Kaballah Centre attended by Madonna, etc.

There is lots more.

Of course as a Rabbi your knowledge is more than mine. So would you tell me your objection to my statement?

So it's the kabalistic idea that 'God' bought existence into being, in order to experience 'ITself' and for the joy of returning to 'ITself'? Simply expressed ...

'God' created (emanated) existence in order to experience 'Himself' and the purpose of existence is returning to 'God'. Simplified.

I realize I am a 'dabbler' and so I do not want either to absorb or dessimate false information.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzimtzum

The tzimtzumor tsimtsum(Hebrewצמצוםṣimṣūm"contraction/constriction/condensation") is a term used in the Lurianic Kabbalahto explain Isaac Luria's doctrine that Godbegan the process of creation by "contracting" his Ohr Ein Sof(infinite) light in order to allow for a "conceptual space" in which finiteand seemingly independent realms could exist. This primordial initial contraction, forming a ḥālāl happānuy"vacant space" (חלל הפנוי) into which new creative light could beam, is denoted by general reference to the tzimtzum. In contrast to earlier, Medieval Kabbalah, this made the first creative act a concealment/Divine exile rather than unfolding revelation. This dynamic crisis-catharsis in the Divine flow is repeated throughout the Lurianic scheme.

Because the tzimtzum results in the "empty space" in which spiritual and physical Worlds and ultimately, free will can exist, God is often referred to as "Ha-Makom" (המקום lit. "the Place", "the Omnipresent") in Rabbinic literature ("He is the Place of the World, but the World is not His Place"[1]). In Kabbalistic interpretation, this describes the paradox of simultaneous Divine presence and absence within the vacuum and resultant Creation. Relatedly, Olam — the Hebrew for "World/Realm" — is derived from the root עלם meaning "concealment". This etymology is complementary with the concept of Tzimtzum in that the subsequent spiritual realms and the ultimate physical universe conceal to different degrees the infinite spiritual lifeforce of creation. Their progressive diminutions of the Divine Ohr (Light) from realm to realm in creation are also referred to in the plural as secondary tzimtzumim (innumerable "condensations/veilings/constrictions" of the lifeforce). However, these subsequent concealments are found in earlier, Medieval Kabbalah. The new doctrine of Luria advanced the notion of the primordial withdrawal (a dilug – radical "leap") in order to reconcile a causal creative chain from the Infinite with finite Existence.

Prior to Creation, there was only the infinite Or Ein Sof filling all existence. When it arose in G-d's Will to create worlds and emanate the emanated ... He contracted (in Hebrew "tzimtzum") Himself in the point at the center, in the very center of His light. He restricted that light, distancing it to the sides surrounding the central point, so that there remained a void, a hollow empty space, away from the central point ... After this tzimtzum ... He drew down from the Or Ein Sof a single straight line [of light] from His light surrounding [the void] from above to below [into the void], and it chained down descending into that void. ... In the space of that void He emanated, created, formed and made all the worlds.
— Etz Chaim, Arizal, Heichal A"K, anaf 2[2]

I hope you will not feel insulted that I have used You Tube and Wikipaedia sources. It is their content that matters.

 

[RJM]

Good stuff, imo ...

"The eye is not designed to look at the sun directly"

 

[RJM]

"New ancient words"

 

[KnowSelf]

You know yourself better than anyone else, what do you want to believe? The choice is totally yours.

 

[steveb1]

I'm curious as to what people would consider qualifying as divine intervention, and any stories they have heard or experienced. I've now had 2 times in my life where I perceived divine intervention, but I'm not convinced that it's not some sort of mechanism to cope with an existence I'd mostly seen as futile

"Street epistemologist" Matt Dillahunty has said that he can't imagine anything that would absolutely convince him of divine presence/intervention, on the principle that any sufficiently advanced technology would not be distinguishable from magic. It could be God or gods or aliens. I myself don't know how to get around this advanced technology consideration. "Even should one rise from the dead, still they will not believe", Jesus is purported to have said. Soon, perhaps our technology will implement that miracle...

 

[KnowSelf]

Is a miracle simply an event or change that defies explanation?

 

[Arif Ghamiq]

"So That Even Though They See All The Signs They Will Not Believe In Them."

(Quran 7:146)

 

[steveb1]

Is a miracle simply an event or change that defies explanation?

I would think that it not only needs to defy (current) explanation, but that it also needs to meet the requirement of sacredness and holiness. They would need to be "godly" in a way that (say) an alien intervention or a paranormal are not. Although of course a sufficiently advanced technology could mimick "holiness"...

 

[Cino]

Good point about the sacred, numinous aspect of divine intervention.

Although to an UFO cultist, the sacredness would be given in the case of, say, an abduction experience.

A devout Christian might not appreciate the divine intervention of Ganesh.

Eye of the beholder, and all that.

 

[steveb1]

Good point about the sacred, numinous aspect of divine intervention.

Although to an UFO cultist, the sacredness would be given in the case of, say, an abduction experience.

A devout Christian might not appreciate the divine intervention of Ganesh.

Eye of the beholder, and all that.

Very well said - and funny, too!