Ask the Advaitin

[I am free]

Hello Agniveda,

Thankyou for your thoughtful replies and for your patience in replying.

So, you’re right - motivation is definitely necessary to perform any action, but the motivation should be (a) to follow dharma and (b) eventual liberation.

Ah! That makes sense. But then there arises more doubts

The concept of nishkama karma is described in detail in the Bhagavad-Gita. It means doing something just because it is your dharma, but not because you want something out of it. Traditionally this involves performing actions and saying I offer the fruits of this action to God. So, one has to be motivated to perform action, but not motivated by the results of that action. Obviously this is a hard standard to live by.

What according to you would count as fruits of action? Let us take an example of a painter who finds immense joy in painting. Once he finishes a painting and it is sold he earns a handsome amount. In this case what would be the fruit? The money he earns or the joy he finds in the act of painting itself? The reason he paints is not so much to earn money as much as to pursue his happiness. So the result of his action logically would be the enjoyment of his action itself? If you take out the joy factor then, there remains no motivation for action.

I have also seen "nishkama karma" being translated as "selfless action". What is selfless action? Let us take an example of a mother who shares a fruit with a child. The child asks for the mother's share as well and the mother gives her share to the child. For the mother the joy of seeing her child gobbling up the entire fruit was greater than eating the fruit herself.

Ultimately, the percieved fruit of an action may not be material at all. For the painter it is the joy of painting, for the mother it is the joy of being a mother. They are both doing their dharma and enjoying it as well. But are their actions truly selfless? Would their actions count as "nishkama karma"?

Would appreciate your views.


Regards.

 

[Agnideva]

Namaste I am free.

I suppose nishkama karma can be translated either as selfless action or desireless action. But, the point is not to be driven by selfish desires. In your painter example, the dharma of the painter is to paint and do the best job he can. If he actually enjoys and is motivated by the fulfillment of his dharma, so much the better; this is not selfish desire. If when he is painting, the painter is thinking how much money he will make and how he will spend or enjoy the money, and that is his only motivation that is not nishkama karma. So, in that regard we should derive enjoyment from every action we do and be motivated to do it – this is not considered selfishness. But, if we only do things expecting rewards from it, that is not nishkama karma.

There are also situations where we have to do things expecting rewards. Still, if you are following dharma, that is okay. Say for example, a man finds a job that he really hates just to earn money to feed himself and his family. He is expecting to get money and feed the family, there’s an expectation involved. But because he is following his dharma and working for a greater good, he is not really doing a selfish act.

Also in your example of the mother sharing a fruit with the child, the mother is following her dharma. In giving the whole fruit to the child, she is being selfless. This can also be considered nishkama karma. If the mother gave the fruit to the child because she derives a sense of joy from her seeing her child eat, then she is really deriving joy from following her dharma as a mother. If she gave the fruit to the child only with the expectation that he/she would do some chores around the house, then this is not really nishkama.

Putting one’s own wants and desires second to one’s dharma is actually the act of nishkama karma. In the following of dharma, the Hindu idealist would say it is better to do dharma for the greater good (for the family, society and the world), ahead of dharma to oneself.

This is according to my understanding; I hope that made sense.

Agnideva.

Hello Agniveda,

Thank you for your thoughtful replies and for your patience in replying.

Ah! That makes sense. But then there arises more doubts

What according to you would count as fruits of action? Let us take an example of a painter who finds immense joy in painting. Once he finishes a painting and it is sold he earns a handsome amount. In this case what would be the fruit? The money he earns or the joy he finds in the act of painting itself? The reason he paints is not so much to earn money as much as to pursue his happiness. So the result of his action logically would be the enjoyment of his action itself? If you take out the joy factor then, there remains no motivation for action.

I have also seen "nishkama karma" being translated as "selfless action". What is selfless action? Let us take an example of a mother who shares a fruit with a child. The child asks for the mother's share as well and the mother gives her share to the child. For the mother the joy of seeing her child gobbling up the entire fruit was greater than eating the fruit herself.

Ultimately, the percieved fruit of an action may not be material at all. For the painter it is the joy of painting, for the mother it is the joy of being a mother. They are both doing their dharma and enjoying it as well. But are their actions truly selfless? Would their actions count as "nishkama karma"?

Would appreciate your views.

Regards.

 

[I am free]

Putting one’s own wants and desires second to one’s dharma is actually the act of nishkama karma. In the following of dharma, the Hindu idealist would say it is better to do dharma for the greater good (for the family, society and the world), ahead of dharma to oneself.

This is according to my understanding; I hope that made sense.

It did make a lot of sense and cleared my understanding quite a bit. Thankyou Agnideva. I can probably be a karma yogi afterall ;-)

 

[I am free]

Hello Agnideva,

Pardon me for being a doubting Thomas, but I was pondering over your last post and though I agree with most of what you said, there is one point I do not understand:

There are also situations where we have to do things expecting rewards. Still, if you are following dharma, that is okay. Say for example, a man finds a job that he really hates just to earn money to feed himself and his family. He is expecting to get money and feed the family, there’s an expectation involved. But because he is following his dharma and working for a greater good, he is not really doing a selfish act.

I think I understand the purport, a man who hates what he is doing, still does his job well because he places dharma above his personal preferences. But still I feel there is a contradiction here when I see the majority of humanity engaging in the drudgery of a 9-5 job without any joy. It doesn't seem like nishkama karma to me.

A thief might really dislike stealing, but may be forced to do so because he lacks any other skill and he has a family to support. Should we then encourage him to do his job well irrespective of his personal preferences. Clearly my understanding is wrong and I am missing a crucial link between dharma and karma. Would be really grateful if you could spot it and point it out to me.

Also karma or action has been qualified by nishkama or desireless. While action may be external, the desireless attribute of the action is internal, which means that what you think or feel is as important as the action itself.

You said that it is OK for a person to feel joy when he is engaging in action. You say that it is also OK for a person to feel total dislike of his action. This means that regardless of how he feels or what he thinks, as long as he does what is his dharma, then his action is nishkama...this does not feel right to me (though I cannot tell you why)

Why does the man dislike what he is doing? Is he not being paid enough? Is his boss treating him poorly? His dislike indicates to me a lack and thus a desire for something better in his current job. A person who dislikes his job, but is still doing nishkama karma is a contradiction according to me.
At the same time, as I think about this, I feel a person who does something for the sake of joy is also exhibiting desire. Take the example of the mother. when the child asks her for the fruit if the mother sees that the child has already had her fill and is only overeating out of greed, then the mother's dharma is to correct the child and refuse the fruit. If instead she gives the fruit to the child because it gives her pleasure then she would not be doing her dharma.

So it seems to me that while it is OK (maybe even necessary?) to feel joy when you engage in action, it is not OK to engage in action purely FOR the pleasure or joy that comes from it. What do you think?

Putting one’s own wants and desires second to one’s dharma is actually the act of nishkama karma. In the following of dharma, the Hindu idealist would say it is better to do dharma for the greater good (for the family, society and the world), ahead of dharma to oneself.

This naturally leads to the question what is dharma?

Let us say I dont like my current job of being a tailor...lets say I'd rather be a gardner. Am I bound to my dharma of being a tailor? How should one decide what is one's dharma? Let's say I follow my dream, sell my tailoring shop and venture into the gardening business. I am doing several things here:

1. I am pursuing my own dreams and hence putting the dharma to oneself ahead...
2. I clearly am driven by desire... desire for happiness. So there is nothing nishkama about this.
3. I am putting my family at risk of not being provided for.

And yet to me this seems the right thing to do. What would be the dharma/nishkama karma view of my actions?

Looking forward to inputs...
Regards.

 

[Agnideva]

Hi I am Free,

This naturally leads to the question what is dharma?

I think you already know what dharma is . Dharma includes all of ones duties and righteous actions. It includes everything: your duty to yourself, your society, your family, to God, the Devas, the sages and the ancestors. It includes your attitudes and the thoughts behind your actions. Dharma is not written in stone, it is up to us as thinking individuals to know and perform our duties to the best of our understanding. Your dharma will depend on the place, the time and the circumstance. This may be why there are no commandments in Sanatana Dharma.

As for nishkama, it is an ideal that can be followed perfectly only by the advanced yogis. The rest of us try to follow nishkama to the best of our ability. We cannot live in a realistic world without any desires, can we? Even hunger and thirst are desires. All we can do is minimize our selfish desires and be focused on the greater goal of liberation, and the fulfillment of our dharmas in this lifetime. Therefore, traditionally it is said that since we cannot live perfectly in nishkama, to offer all our actions, motivations, and consequences thereof to God (this is from the Gita). The point of nishkama is not to erase your needs or wants, but to get you focused on the greater goal. Nishkama doesn’t say you should work in a place you don’t like, it doesn’t say you should not pursue your dreams, and it doesn’t say you should live in misery.

A thief might really dislike stealing, but may be forced to do so because he lacks any other skill and he has a family to support. Should we then encourage him to do his job well irrespective of his personal preferences. Clearly my understanding is wrong and I am missing a crucial link between dharma and karma. Would be really grateful if you could spot it and point it out to me.

As for the thief, isn’t he putting his dharma to himself and his family ahead of his greater dharma towards his society?

Take the example of the mother. when the child asks her for the fruit if the mother sees that the child has already had her fill and is only overeating out of greed, then the mother's dharma is to correct the child and refuse the fruit. If instead she gives the fruit to the child because it gives her pleasure then she would not be doing her dharma.

You’re right. It is also the mother’s dharma not to overfeed her child. I mean childhood obesity is a big problem these days . So, what is one’s dharma depends on the situation – it’s relative.

So it seems to me that while it is OK (maybe even necessary?) to feel joy when you engage in action, it is not OK to engage in action purely FOR the pleasure or joy that comes from it. What do you think?

Right, that's a good way to sum it up.

 

[I am free]

Hi I am Free,

I think you already know what dharma is . Dharma includes all of ones duties and righteous actions. It includes everything: your duty to yourself, your society, your family, to God, the Devas, the sages and the ancestors. It includes your attitudes and the thoughts behind your actions. Dharma is not written in stone, it is up to us as thinking individuals to know and perform our duties to the best of our understanding. Your dharma will depend on the place, the time and the circumstance. This may be why there are no commandments in Sanatana Dharma.

I absolutely love this definition of Dharma. Thankyou Agnideva.