Yeah, it's becoming a pain. @StevePame only comes online later. He's in America. So try it and see if it comes through? Or otherwise perhaps inform us that you have posted it, and that it seems to have been blocked for now?
Regards
Am I a Christian?
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Regards
I hope you dont see this as a cop out but you can easily say it is here......Im still trying to work out all the contradictions in the bible, from the perspective that some books are post Paul and retaliational and edifying, James looks like prepared minutes for a future court case (for Paul?) and there is the secular historic record by Josephus (Domitian?) which mirrors Acts written by Luke (?) and there is the stoning of James mirroring the stoning of Stephen. If I had to make a commitment I would keep the 5 Original Testament books, the prophets and Matthew (which I believe has been tampered with but contains the most from Jesus word and deed comparatively from all the canonical) Im still reading the Apocryphal works and the Quran
Cannot comment on forgeries although believe God will not test us beyond our collective capabilities so I see all the bible being useful in one way or another, if books are forgeries they leave clues and EVERYTHING will be put right by God in his good timing. That is what I believe anyway
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I was referring to the introduction of Roman taxation (pay up or be killed) but on further thought I could include the Herodian family, plus the Pharisees all having more "physical" clout when you add to that the backing of the Sanhedrin who were given authority to sentence anyone to death for not towing the line. I would certainly include the threat of death as a coercive measure, wouldn't you? Consider Herod' infanticide would not be forgotten easily or Titus (and Nero' fire episode in Rome is comparable to 911 which politically coerced many into another unwinable war....terror or compliance) in Jerusalem...this sent the ebionites running with possibly a few scrolls and one soon to be recycled set of soiled underpants and certainly helped restore Roman dominance and their own version of law and order (threats and coersion....teaching the charity of public consent after seeing public floggings and crucifictions to help "persuade" the masses on there financial commitments).
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Whew! That means you are far more studied than I am. I'm just dabbling here, by the seat of my pants, by comparison. This is referring to the New Testament gospels?
Best let the Admin make the call, Im being highly moderated and I guess it's because I name dropped earlier CI (who love Paul), Freemasonry, with the words race/racism etc...and of course St Paul is a hot topic in itself.
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Perhaps it all comes down to why these books were left out (by Pantheonic Romans or individuals in the least faithful of hands).
Perhaps it is the very appeal of having been left intact ie it shows less error in conformity to previous prophetic writings, or even because the substance of the book gives less room for political obfuscation and editing which the year of it's completion or the author had the foresight to acknowledge these points.
Example might be Acts... it has less meat on the bones than Josephus' historical account of the same time period and Josephus gives more details regarding family connections and other things you might of expected Luke (?) to include, or to offer the reader the best context and a more accurate time line of the same events if this was the standard of intention. But then Josephus was a Pharisee also (as was Paul according to his own word) and this changes the setting for its reading into an intricate study in warning of the political era being documented, I said it further back....does anyone have a DOG in this race.
Is it not all relative to what information the reader gains in terms of truthful content?
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So, Matthew. The first synoptic gospel, which some believe was dictated by St Peter during his imprisonment? May we restrict discussion to St Matthew's gospel, and start to look at where it may have been tampered with? Will you begin?
I hope to be able answer this better in the future. I'm still trying to get to know this Saul/Paul/saulus charachter, he is too slippery to pin down at the moment.
Im not even sure where the limitations of the Apocryphal books ends.....even Roald Dahl might be considered Apocryphal now writing about DANny the champion of the 10 northerners or cannibal giants (Nephilim) in the BFG and Witches (Canaanite women) expressed by the help of Quentins artistic portraits etc... I blame Dan Brown' it's his fault!! We are now looking for clues in the bakes bean cupboard.
Cool. Check out the collection of Christian apocrypha on the this website. It's extensive:
https://www.interfaith.org/christianity/apocrypha/
2 Peter is apparantly widely accepted as a complete forgery... I cannot even comment on this yet...
I chose Matthew because it offers more if not the most of Jesus.
Matthew includes a geneology of Jesus which is difficult for me anyway to certify, but it contains the parables which speak different things to different people (this is clearly where it gets interesting for me).
There are warnings that clearly fit the charachter of St Paul AND his future diciples/adherents.
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I have bookmarked this. My reading list....wow.
Thanks again
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Yes, you are allowed to do so. And I've changed your settings so that your posts with links shouldn't be flagged for moderation.
It's a hypothesis, the Documentary Hypothesis, proposed by Julius Wellhausen, claiming four separate source strands in the development of the Pentateuch. The Jahwist came first (those writings identifying God as The Lord), around the 10th century BC, then the Elohist (the appearance of Elohim in the texts seen as a separate source) in the 9th, the Deuteronomist was just before the reign of King Josiah, 7th-8th century. Finally, the Priestly generally dated 5th century BC.
The consensus collapsed in the 1970s, and since then there are various 'fragmentary' and 'supplementary' sources, so we have J, E, JE, D1, D2, and on and on ... but generally scholars keep bringing the date of the 'final' version of the Torah appearing somewhere between 539-164BC, depending on who your favour.
Some (many) modern scholars believe the Old Testament is not a reliable witness to the religion of ancient Israel and Judah, but rather represents the beliefs of a small segment of the Israelite community centred in Jerusalem, devoted to the worship of Yahweh exclusively.
Interesting stuff
Here are some helpful links to aid any discussion. I'm not promoting the websites as being in agreement with all of the content but it might actually help anyone who wants to comment gain a general gist of what is being spokem about (so all of it can be up for critique/discussion etc).
This site presents the works that are said or believed to be credited to the historian going by the name Josephus.
www.earlyjewishwritings.com/josephus.html
This link might help any reader get more acquainted with the concept of and the relationship between Josephus and the NT books, much rather like we might use the "media" or newspapers to document historical facts during an important religious time period, remember wikipedia and such wasn't around lol..
https://bible.org/article/josephus’-writings-and-their-relation-new-testament
Some of the arguements regarding Paulus/St Paul/Paul/Saul/saulus and their familiarities spread amongst the biblical and historical records (with the assumption both are 100% reliable which many "will" and "do" argue is NOT) might include some form of bias from whichever point of view the compiler/author writes from, this could be because the auuthor is Catholic, Islamic, Jewish or Atheist... so Im going to use the "multi-faith" option here and include some I have found that while do not neccessarilly follow my own beliefs or opinions (and Eisenman's lol) they might still show "doubt" as to Paul' identity or at the least add to the pool of clues that might otherwise raise those doubts.
I don't claim to be in agreement with all perspectives but when I said I'm not alone in my questioning of who Paul is as a general consensus it might otherwise be accepted on differing grounds (and levels of intellectual reasoning) show and share the conclusion that Paul as a charachter is not straightfoward and I think I can at least prove this single point:
This one is from a Catholic perspective (?), from Dr Taylor Marshall, asking wether Paul is indeed related to the Herodian dynasty by offering 7 proofs.
://taylormarshall.com/2015/08/was-saint-paul-related-to-herod-7-reasons-paul-was-herodian.html
Next we have Robert Eisenman, mentioned earlier in this thread.
https://depts.drew.edu/jhc/eisenman.html
Next we have Douglas Tondo, an "evangelical" Christian attorney, who gives a detailed account of Paul from multiple perspectives, suggesting Paul/Saul' links to the Herod dynasty but offers a more prophetic account or of why Paul might fulfill the "Benjamite Wolf prophecy" amongst other details.
https://jesuswordsonly.com/
There seem to be quite a few sites dedicated to contradictions between Jesus and Paul.
But rather than offer the reader my choice or my bias can simply google search this area and see the overwhelming amount of sites and links to this area of study...(should they feel they want/need to including yes...Wikipedia and YouTube lol)
Here is a website (that for me not only was incredibly SL L O W W to load but required me to lose all my open tabs to exit from it!!) It might be better viewed on a computer and I include these links because it gives "authorative" (and widely accepted) information regarding the Sanhedrin, also for those who might find getting acquainted with this court system and it's protocols which certainly helps when reading about what is mentioned in the NT accounts (and in the witings of Josephus) ie the accounts of the trials of Jesus, Stephen,James and Paul etc..
Requirements for judges, including members fo the Sanhedrin.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/tractate-sanhedrin-chapter-1
How members of the Sanhedrin are selected
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/
tractate-sanhedrin-chapter-4
Next we have a Noachide take/perspective on Paul from this link:
http://noahide-ancient-path.co.uk/i...hristianity/2011/07/paul-descendant-of-herod/
What do Muslims make of Paul' credentials?
I don't quite know for sure but I suspect since he is not mentioned in the Quran, then he has no merit outside of his own letters? (any Muslims feel free to correct me if I have tis incorrect please)
This site presents the works that are said or believed to be credited to the historian going by the name Josephus.
www.earlyjewishwritings.com/josephus.html
This link might help any reader get more acquainted with the concept of and the relationship between Josephus and the NT books, much rather like we might use the "media" or newspapers to document historical facts during an important religious time period, remember wikipedia and such wasn't around lol..
https://bible.org/article/josephus’-writings-and-their-relation-new-testament
Some of the arguements regarding Paulus/St Paul/Paul/Saul/saulus and their familiarities spread amongst the biblical and historical records (with the assumption both are 100% reliable which many "will" and "do" argue is NOT) might include some form of bias from whichever point of view the compiler/author writes from, this could be because the auuthor is Catholic, Islamic, Jewish or Atheist... so Im going to use the "multi-faith" option here and include some I have found that while do not neccessarilly follow my own beliefs or opinions (and Eisenman's lol) they might still show "doubt" as to Paul' identity or at the least add to the pool of clues that might otherwise raise those doubts.
I don't claim to be in agreement with all perspectives but when I said I'm not alone in my questioning of who Paul is as a general consensus it might otherwise be accepted on differing grounds (and levels of intellectual reasoning) show and share the conclusion that Paul as a charachter is not straightfoward and I think I can at least prove this single point:
This one is from a Catholic perspective (?), from Dr Taylor Marshall, asking wether Paul is indeed related to the Herodian dynasty by offering 7 proofs.
://taylormarshall.com/2015/08/was-saint-paul-related-to-herod-7-reasons-paul-was-herodian.html
Next we have Robert Eisenman, mentioned earlier in this thread.
https://depts.drew.edu/jhc/eisenman.html
Next we have Douglas Tondo, an "evangelical" Christian attorney, who gives a detailed account of Paul from multiple perspectives, suggesting Paul/Saul' links to the Herod dynasty but offers a more prophetic account or of why Paul might fulfill the "Benjamite Wolf prophecy" amongst other details.
https://jesuswordsonly.com/
There seem to be quite a few sites dedicated to contradictions between Jesus and Paul.
But rather than offer the reader my choice or my bias can simply google search this area and see the overwhelming amount of sites and links to this area of study...(should they feel they want/need to including yes...Wikipedia and YouTube lol)
Here is a website (that for me not only was incredibly SL L O W W to load but required me to lose all my open tabs to exit from it!!) It might be better viewed on a computer and I include these links because it gives "authorative" (and widely accepted) information regarding the Sanhedrin, also for those who might find getting acquainted with this court system and it's protocols which certainly helps when reading about what is mentioned in the NT accounts (and in the witings of Josephus) ie the accounts of the trials of Jesus, Stephen,James and Paul etc..
Requirements for judges, including members fo the Sanhedrin.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/tractate-sanhedrin-chapter-1
How members of the Sanhedrin are selected
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/
tractate-sanhedrin-chapter-4
Next we have a Noachide take/perspective on Paul from this link:
http://noahide-ancient-path.co.uk/i...hristianity/2011/07/paul-descendant-of-herod/
What do Muslims make of Paul' credentials?
I don't quite know for sure but I suspect since he is not mentioned in the Quran, then he has no merit outside of his own letters? (any Muslims feel free to correct me if I have tis incorrect please)
Nope it still says:This message is awaiting moderator approval, and is invisible to normal visitors.
16:09 GMT thursday 12th December 2019