This Is Not What I Am, excerpt from the Yamaka Sutta

If we bring science into it, then in order to be respectful of science, let's have sources for those findings of infinite awareness and unknown realms.
 
Anything at the microscopic level or quantum level constitutes 'hidden realms', for until recently they were not even suspected of existing; thus hidden. The same with the universe; planets, galaxies, black holes, expansion, etc. Scientists discovered the universe is most likley infinite, infinity also exists as a fact mathematically. The universe is basically emptiness (enormous space between masses and everything has infinite depth, there is no end to anything--thats what quantum physics and cosmology prove.)

All of this appears in ancient scripture, gotama says the universe is infinite and expands and retracts, and is emptiness.

"The essence of the doings of the world is inconceivable."
 
Hm. Well, they are not that hidden any more, we are uncovering that stuff.

In the case of quantum mechanics though, it's the case that there *are* limits to the depth. That's why it's called "quantum", I think - the pixels begin to show. Elementary charge. Uncertainty principle. Absolute zero temperature.

I dig the gist of what you say. The universe is amazing!
 
Cino said:
... The big flashy experiences tend to get downplayed by those whom I respect for the depth of their experience. Zen calls them "makyo"; Sanskrit traditions call them miccha - in fact, the "wrong" as in "wrong view" is the same word. So the tenor is, when meditating, don't get distracted by the lights and faces.
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Quite. I was told the same thing when I was meditating with Buddhist instructors. 'Experiences' were all part of the ego struggle to derail the practice.

In the Catholic Tradition there's the same thing too — ignore any extraneous events when in prayer/contemplation. If God has got something to say, He'll make Himself known! :D I don't know if anyone's actually written on this area of 'experience'.

And I'm a huge fan of Denys Turner's The Darkness of God and Christian apophatism. The origins of the Christian Mystical Tradition are all solidly rooted in the non-experiential. St Paul, St John, Denys the pseudoAreopagite, all the way through to The Cloud of Unknowing, Meister Eckhart and on.

The pursuit of experience is very much a modern thing.

There was the Hesychast dispute in the East, when the practice of a Christian mode of contemplation was pushed to its limits, but my insights into this are quite limited.

I had my 'flash' moments on my first meditation weeklong retreat, but was ready for it. I had others when I was doing my Reiki practice, very much akin to standing behind myself watching myself, or was I seeing through the eyes of a Reiki sensei? :eek:

Had my moments in Catholic practice, too ...
 
Hi Beautiful —

Just an aside here, but whilst Akiane Kramarik is very much a prodigy, I'd say her portrait of Christ:
download-1.jpg
is very much a product of Americana. Having said that, as much as I dislike this portrait for its sentimentality, I also dislike the Catholic Devotion to the Sacred Heart image on the same grounds:

download-2.jpg

So who am I to say? :)
 
Thomas said:
Quite. I was told the same thing when I was meditating with Buddhist instructors. 'Experiences' were all part of the ego struggle to derail the practice.

In the Catholic Tradition there's the same thing too — ignore any extraneous events when in prayer/contemplation. If God has got something to say, He'll make Himself known! :D I don't know if anyone's actually written on this area of 'experience'.

And I'm a huge fan of Denys Turner's The Darkness of God and Christian apophatism. The origins of the Christian Mystical Tradition are all solidly rooted in the non-experiential. St Paul, St John, Denys the pseudoAreopagite, all the way through to The Cloud of Unknowing, Meister Eckhart and on.

The pursuit of experience is very much a modern thing.

There was the Hesychast dispute in the East, when the practice of a Christian mode of contemplation was pushed to its limits, but my insights into this are quite limited.

I had my 'flash' moments on my first meditation weeklong retreat, but was ready for it. I had others when I was doing my Reiki practice, very much akin to standing behind myself watching myself, or was I seeing through the eyes of a Reiki sensei? :eek:

Had my moments in Catholic practice, too ...
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I think the term "experience" is sometimes used too narrowly, to mean only the flashy epiphany type events. In a broader sense, everything is an experience to us, and part of the fun is to gain insight into how this whole mode of "experience" of everything operates.

Also, I would not go so far as to totally disregard every profound "experience" type experience as a distraction. The first epiphany, and the second, and the next few, yes, don't get too hung up on them. But with repeat performance, and familiarity, it is possible to gain, er, experience, in dealing with these experiences, and this is when things start to move. The far-out stuff is best experienced with a measure of poise that is not dependent on what is going on in the moment, but very much attentive to it. A kind of serene come-what-may state of mind. This steadiness is a matter of training. In my experience, at least ;)
 
Thomas said:
... I also dislike the Catholic Devotion to the Sacred Heart image on the same grounds ...
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Iconography can be terribly cheesy. But it can be a *lot* of fun to have someone who knows all the references explain such an image. A relative of mine was into this, and I always enjoyed it when he started pointing out the attributes and aspects and what not.
 
Beautiful said:
I dont want to tell you. Then my interpretation would act as form of authority. Rather, lets dicover it together, look into it together :) So, in your life experience, have you been able to locate something in yourself which could be called a personal essence?
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Let's stick with the OP sutta. As I said, I find it rather ambiguous, but you seem to be reading in the idea of a contining personal essence, something rather like an Atman? Do correct me if I've misunderstood your view, I've had to make some assumptions because you won't give a straight answer.

The question then is, do the Buddhist suttas as a whole support this view? Personally I don't think they do, given for example "sabbe dhamma anatta", which is one of the main differences between Hindu and Buddhist teachings.
 
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Mrs Malaprop said:
Let's stick with the OP sutta. As I said, I find it rather ambiguous, but you seem to be reading in the idea of a contining personal essence, something rather like an Atman? Do correct me if I've misunderstood your view, I've had to make some assumptions because you won't give a straight answer.

The question then is, do the Buddhist suttas as a whole support this view? Personally I don't think they do, given for example "sabbe dhamma anatta", which is one of the main differences between Hindu and Buddhist teachings.
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Death doesn't exist. Its a concept. It doesnt exist outside of thought. The world is like an ilusion, like a dream. There is no one home, so to speak. There is only continual awareness. Its very beautiful. Thats why we say The Glory of God, The Glory of the Light of God, etc.
 
1. Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at [1] He was making this statement before the Vesali assembly: "The recluse Gotama does not have any superhuman states, any distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones.[2] The recluse Gotama teaches a Dhamma (merely) hammered out by reasoning, following his own line of inquiry as it occurs to him, and when he teaches the Dhamma to anyone, it leads him when he practices it to the complete destruction of suffering."[3]
 
Beautiful said:
Death doesn't exist. Its a concept. It doesnt exist outside of thought. The world is like an ilusion, like a dream. There is no one home, so to speak. There is only continual awareness. Its very beautiful. Thats why we say The Glory of God, The Glory of the Light of God, etc.
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The Mahayana has additional teachings to prevent this from sliding into nihilism. What's your take on them?
 
Beautiful said:
Death doesn't exist. Its a concept. It doesnt exist outside of thought. The world is like an ilusion, like a dream. There is no one home, so to speak. There is only continual awareness. Its very beautiful. Thats why we say The Glory of God, The Glory of the Light of God, etc.
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Unfortunately you still haven't answered my question.
What you have described above sounds much more like a Hindu view than a Buddhist one, quite Advaita-ish.
I'm quite partial to the Hindu view myself these days, but I wouldn't confuse it with the Buddhist one. And we are in the Buddhist sub-forum! :p
 
Mrs Malaprop said:
Unfortunately you still haven't answered my question.
What you have described above sounds much more like a Hindu view than a Buddhist one, quite Advaita-ish.
I'm quite partial to the Hindu view myself these days, but I wouldn't confuse it with the Buddhist one. And we are in the Buddhist sub-forum! :p
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Buddhism is just refined hinduism :) its called the dao too. The name doesnt matter.
 
Beautiful said:
Buddhism is just refined hinduism :) its called the dao too. The name doesnt matter.
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I would advise not posting on either Buddhist or Hindu forums with this kind of new-age nonsense, it will not be well-received. :p
Though ironically, if you really want to understand these traditions, that is probably what you need to do.
 
Thomas said:
Quite. I was told the same thing when I was meditating with Buddhist instructors. 'Experiences' were all part of the ego struggle to derail the practice.

In the Catholic Tradition there's the same thing too — ignore any extraneous events when in prayer/contemplation. If God has got something to say, He'll make Himself known! :D I don't know if anyone's actually written on this area of 'experience'.

And I'm a huge fan of Denys Turner's The Darkness of God and Christian apophatism. The origins of the Christian Mystical Tradition are all solidly rooted in the non-experiential. St Paul, St John, Denys the pseudoAreopagite, all the way through to The Cloud of Unknowing, Meister Eckhart and on.

The pursuit of experience is very much a modern thing.

There was the Hesychast dispute in the East, when the practice of a Christian mode of contemplation was pushed to its limits, but my insights into this are quite limited.

I had my 'flash' moments on my first meditation weeklong retreat, but was ready for it. I had others when I was doing my Reiki practice, very much akin to standing behind myself watching myself, or was I seeing through the eyes of a Reiki sensei? :eek:

Had my moments in Catholic practice, too ...
Click to expand...

Regarding the miracles which ocurr through following the path (mental superpowers are a known aspect of buddhism and meditation, these are called Attainments in the teaching and they can be discovered experientially) I wanted to direct you to my other thread where I uploaded The Garland Flower Sutra, which like most all buddhist and hindu texts, is based on these attainments and what happens.
 
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