Reading Scripture

[RJM]

if there is a way to unite the world, a way to unite all humanity to live in peace and harmony in a common good, how else would it be heard of, if it is not passed on by spreading the way by verbal exchange?

Correct.
So, in spirit of discussion, and apology for repetition:

The Baha'i faith seems to be mainly concerned with the material future of a one world humanity, while other 'conventional' faiths concern themselves more with the spiritual future of the individual soul? To Ceasar what is Ceasar's and to God what is God's.

So immediately the question: who is going to adjudicate the new one world system -- because the buck has to stop somewhere. There must be someone at the top able to cast the deciding vote, presumably elected. And so this become religious politics, with representatives from varying faiths and religions -- and non-faiths and anti-faiths -- all lobbying for position.

No? Uh uh. It's the Baha'i faith gonna be running all this, with absolute fairness and justice and brother love all round. The ultimate in theocracy.

Other faiths: are all happily going to agree to becoming merged into the new one world Baha'i order. Even from the discussions on these reasonably polite forums, it's evident that this is not going to happen willingly anytime soon? And all before real-world nationalisms and conflicts and alliances, and all the rest of the real world stuff comes into it?

So really a faith-centred peaceful one world system anytime in the reasonable future is actually just a pipe dream, is it not? It's science fiction really? And the Baha'i faith seems mostly to centre around it?

... ?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

So, to loop back to your quandary: Do you now understand that it is entirely of your own making, and it disappears once you don't redefine words to mean something other than commonly understood? Will you refrain from seeking to recruit or convert people to your cause or religion here?

Words are a tool and meanings change. I see the issue is that people hesitate when new frames of reference are offered.

Are you asking if I will not offer Baha'u'llah's Message in my replies on this forum?

If you are, then no, there would be no purpose for me to be here, that Message is who I want to be. It is no different from you offering from who you want to be, or from anyone else offering from what they want to be.

I have already said to you that I am not here to convert any person, as it is not I that can influence any soul and thus want or try to.

Regards Tony

 

[Cino]

Words are a tool and meanings change. I see the issue is that people hesitate when new frames of reference are offered.

Are you asking if I will not offer Baha'u'llah's Message in my replies on this forum?

Basically, it's your problem if you change the meaning of words for yourself or your group. When interacting with others, though, don't complain if nobody understands you.

However, if you start changing my words, I object. You deliberately put it as if I forbid you to participate in discussions from your perspective or frame of reference. That is just not true. I asked you not to recruit people to your cause. You can still shine in other ways.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I asked you not to recruit people to your cause. You can still shine in other ways.

What are you asking.

For me not to hope all people can be united and love each other as one human race, with no predudices?

Not sure how many times I have to say it is not me that is recruiting, people have their own heart and own choices.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

For me not to hope all people can be united and love each other as one human race, with no predudices?

But how, in actual reality? Are people just suddenly going to be good to each other? What makes it viable, beyond being just a nice idea -- and nothing wrong with hoping, of course -- but when I'm basing a whole religion upon it, surely it's not unreasonable to ask practical questions?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

But how, in actual reality? Are people just suddenly going to be good to each other? What makes it viable, beyond being just a nice idea -- and nothing wrong with hoping, of course -- but when I'm basing a whole religion upon it, surely it's not unreasonable to ask practical questions?

Baha'u'llah has said that there will be a series of convulsions that will test humanity and will culminate in an event that will shake the limbs of all mankind.

These events will teach us that we need to work together and that we are guided in how to live this life.

Thus, it will unfold over time as personal choices. As a Baha'i, all I am asked to do is keep offering the choices, in Love and Wisdom, there is no compulsion in Religion.

I hope you will remain safe and happy in these times. We will face many challenges in the years ahead.

Regards Tony

 

[2ndpillar]

But how, in actual reality? Are people just suddenly going to be good to each other? What makes it viable, beyond being just a nice idea -- and nothing wrong with hoping, of course -- but when I'm basing a whole religion upon it, surely it's not unreasonable to ask practical questions?

The problem of today, is that everyone is trying to be seen as nicer than the next guy, or to more precise, more "righteous". Barrack said to be your brother's keeper, yet his brother was living in a hovel in Kenya at that time. Apparently it isn't nice to call someone by the wrong gender, even if that person is suffering from gender dysphoria. Apparently is is nice for someone to covet their neighbor' goods, and they should burn down their city to press their point. Apparently it would be nice to sell all you have and give it to someone because they are of a different race. The guy who thinks he is the most righteous guy in the world is apparently the unrighteous Mitt Romney. Probably a symptom of his religious upbringing. The man is overflowing with hate, yet he feels he is better than the deplorables he is supposed to represent. What people think or feel is pretty much useless in today's environment. Either you are built on a foundation of stone, or you are built on one of sand. Today's world is more and more building their houses on a foundation of sand, which was sold to them by the devil at a premium over cost.

 

[RJM]

Barrack said to be your brother's keeper, yet his brother was living in a hovel in Kenya at that time.

Don’t worry, my brother’s the same. He made his money by hard work and doesn’t expect his siblings to come sponging it off him. He says he’s got his own problems and his own family to worry about.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...irobi-shanty-town-U-S-Presidents-BROTHER.html

Obama's slumdog brother: Meet the hopeless drunk from a Nairobi shanty town who is the US President's brother. George Obama has battled addictions to drink and drugs for most of his life at the same time as his relative has enjoyed a meteoric rise to power

Details of the lifestyle of Obama's half-brother emerged with news he has agreed to appear in a documentary made by one of the President's most trenchant critics

Such, apparently, is his devotion to good works that many Kenyans want George to stand for President, believing anyone sharing the name and blood of the most powerful politician on the planet can transform their lives.

But, as I discovered, this may prove beyond George. Indeed standing — let alone talking much sense or walking in a straight line — is tricky for the U.S. President’s brother much of the time, due to his chronic addiction to drink and years of drug abuse.

Nor is there anything heroic and altruistic about his motives for living in the slums. His principal reason is that the potent local moonshine is cheap and readily available here, as is cocaine, heroin and marijuana.

Clearly following the dictum that the best place to hide a tree is in a forest, George’s decision to settle in a slum called Huruma — which is scarred by alcoholism, drug addiction and violence — means his own destructive behaviour attracts little attention.

Although he claims not to be using heroin or cocaine, George now spends his time drinking what locals call Chang’aa — a spirit distilled with maize and spiked with chemicals — from the moment he wakes to the moment he slips into unconsciousness.

Laced with ethanol, embalming fluid or battery acid to give it more kick, this substance is regularly blamed for causing blindness and death when the criminal syndicates behind the trade mix it wrongly.

A glass costs about 10p and, after just five small shots, even hardened drinkers can barely remember their own name. Regular users suffer liver and kidney failure, as well as mental impairment known as ‘wet brain’ …

 

[2ndpillar]

Don’t worry, my brother’s the same. He made his money by hard work and doesn’t expect his siblings to come sponging it off him. He says he’s got his own problems and his own family to worry about.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...irobi-shanty-town-U-S-Presidents-BROTHER.html

Obama's slumdog brother: Meet the hopeless drunk from a Nairobi shanty town who is the US President's brother. George Obama has battled addictions to drink and drugs for most of his life at the same time as his relative has enjoyed a meteoric rise to power

Details of the lifestyle of Obama's half-brother emerged with news he has agreed to appear in a documentary made by one of the President's most trenchant critics

Such, apparently, is his devotion to good works that many Kenyans want George to stand for President, believing anyone sharing the name and blood of the most powerful politician on the planet can transform their lives.

But, as I discovered, this may prove beyond George. Indeed standing — let alone talking much sense or walking in a straight line — is tricky for the U.S. President’s brother much of the time, due to his chronic addiction to drink and years of drug abuse.

Nor is there anything heroic and altruistic about his motives for living in the slums. His principal reason is that the potent local moonshine is cheap and readily available here, as is cocaine, heroin and marijuana.

Clearly following the dictum that the best place to hide a tree is in a forest, George’s decision to settle in a slum called Huruma — which is scarred by alcoholism, drug addiction and violence — means his own destructive behaviour attracts little attention.

Although he claims not to be using heroin or cocaine, George now spends his time drinking what locals call Chang’aa — a spirit distilled with maize and spiked with chemicals — from the moment he wakes to the moment he slips into unconsciousness.

Laced with ethanol, embalming fluid or battery acid to give it more kick, this substance is regularly blamed for causing blindness and death when the criminal syndicates behind the trade mix it wrongly.

A glass costs about 10p and, after just five small shots, even hardened drinkers can barely remember their own name. Regular users suffer liver and kidney failure, as well as mental impairment known as ‘wet brain’ …

And your point is?

 

[PricelessPearl]

So now we have the quandary, as how do we approach the quandary of allowing a person to offer a new frame of reference on reading of scriptures, without that person being accused of trying to convert others? I can say hand on heart that it is not I that can convert any person and I as such I have no intent to convert any person, but I do see there is another valid frame of reference to offer on all conversations about Faith and Life.

The issue I see we are all faced with, is that Baha'u'llah has offered that He speaks for all Mesengers and that what He has offered in Scripture, is from the One God of All the Mesengers. This is not just for me, Baha’u’llah said is is given for all humanity.

I offer this comparison. If I quote from one of those scriptures from what Jesus offered, this will demonstrate how it is not my view that answers the passage, but it is Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation that answers the scripture. It would be my view that it is the answer, others may not agree.

It has been written in the Bible in John 16:12-14. "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you."

Baha'u'llah has said;

"... Announce thou unto the priests: Lo! He Who is the Ruler is come. Step out from behind the veil in the name of thy Lord, He Who layeth low the necks of all men. Proclaim then unto all mankind the glad-tidings of this mighty, this glorious Revelation. Verily, He Who is the Spirit of Truth is come to guide you unto all truth. He speaketh not as prompted by His own self, but as bidden by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. Say, this is the One Who hath glorified the Son and hath exalted His Cause. – Baha’u’llah, “The Most Holy Tablet” (also known as the “Tablet to the Christians”), Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 12.

So the promise is in the first scripture and the answer is in the second, they balance each other.

My view would be I see they do, mostly because I have read a great deal more about what Baha'u'llah offered.

Other views would say they do not, as a Christain may immediately view it as a False Prophet scenario.

So after offering that and getting a reply about false prophet. How can one respond without offer more from Baha'u'llah as to why He is not a False Prophet, but is indeed the One promised by Jesus the Christ?

Where is the Balance?

I see it is in not offering a new frame of reference to those that do not want to hear it. So how on an open forum do we approach that quandary, without accusation?

Regards Tony

Hi Tone, I haven’t read all the thread on this discussion and I know absolutely nothing about the prophet you quoted, but I liked the quote, nor do I know anything about your faith.

But I would like to provide my understanding about the promised One (whether the promised son to Abraham or the promise of the coming Messiah or the promise of the return of Christ - which is the resurrection of the dead). For me, the Messenger (I am speaking in a Christian context) comes within us. The Messiah or Son or Spirit of Truth is made known, or appears, to our consciousness. He isn’t a person who is coming upon a cloud in the sky, but rather He descends from heaven or above (above means within) within us. That doesn’t mean that there are never prophets in the world to teach mankind, but the only One I believe anyone needs to wait for is the Lord who is sleeping or buried in the children of God who have not yet awakened to their own divine nature.

In scripture we are told Christ comes with a two edged sword (which I understand to be the true interpretation of scripture- whatever one’s holy scripture is). This is very destructive because it is the divine light, knowledge, reasoning that lays waste to false knowledge and the reasoning of the carnal or worldly ego mind. In scripture it talks about the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem and people understand this to mean the actual stone temple in the city on earth, but I don’t.
We are God’s temple. God wills and moves within us and when Christ comes or awakens within our consciousness, he tears the temple apart, he leaves no stone unturned.

Most people (and I am going to come across here as a real shit, if I already haven’t) have Satan seated on the throne within them, and I am speaking about Consciousness because Satan is the personification of a consciousness. Jerusalem is God’s city, where he dwells, and that is in us. So the Master of the House comes to reclaim what is his.

So my point being, and from my personal experience, is that people tend to interpret scripture from a literal or physical level. And we are free (as much as that is even true) to interpret as we want. But when he comes within the veil is lifted. Others can’t see it. The veil remains for them. But to the person in whom he has comes, they can see him. And for the person in whom he hasn’t yet come, but they believe in him, believe he is coming (that he is within and at the appointed time will appear (or make himself known), blessed is that person.

Peace

 

[Cino]

Most people (and I am going to come across here as a real shit, if I already haven’t) have Satan seated on the throne within them, and I am speaking about Consciousness because Satan is the personification of a consciousness. Jerusalem is God’s city, where he dwells, and that is in us. So the Master of the House comes to reclaim what is his.

Why do you want to come across as "a real shit"?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I think what she is saying is that most people have "an evil intention" inside them.
Naturally, saying such a thing begs the question as to whether that applies to her .. or not?

 

[PricelessPearl]

Why do you want to come across as "a real shit"?

Well I don’t, but it’s a matter of perception isn’t it. Because I am aware that what I have to say might not be well received, or misunderstood.

 

[PricelessPearl]

I think what she is saying is that most people have "an evil intention" inside them.
Naturally, saying such a thing begs the question as to whether that applies to her .. or not?

It isn’t at all what I am saying. In fact, I said that everyone has God inside them. Not one person greater than another.

 

[Cino]

Well I don’t, but it’s a matter of perception isn’t it. Because I am aware that what I have to say might not be well received, or misunderstood.

Well, I think that the communication choices we make often speak as loudly as the content of our message. And it is when the two are at odds that it can become quite confusing.

So, what's in it for you to come across like that?

And what's your reasoning to say, essentially, "I think most of you are possessed by an evil spirit" to a forum dedicated to the dialogue between different faiths?

 

[muhammad_isa]

It isn’t at all what I am saying. In fact, I said that everyone has God inside them. Not one person greater than another.

Oh .. nevertheless, Jesus, peace be with him, certainly criticised many of his contemporaries [Pharisees and Saducees],
accusing them of bad intentions

Personally, I think we are all weak and subject to incline towards evil .. some more than others, of course.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Hi Tone, I haven’t read all the thread on this discussion and I know absolutely nothing about the prophet you quoted, but I liked the quote, nor do I know anything about your faith.

But I would like to provide my understanding about the promised One (whether the promised son to Abraham or the promise of the coming Messiah or the promise of the return of Christ - which is the resurrection of the dead). For me, the Messenger (I am speaking in a Christian context) comes within us. The Messiah or Son or Spirit of Truth is made known, or appears, to our consciousness. He isn’t a person who is coming upon a cloud in the sky, but rather He descends from heaven or above (above means within) within us. That doesn’t mean that there are never prophets in the world to teach mankind, but the only One I believe anyone needs to wait for is the Lord who is sleeping or buried in the children of God who have not yet awakened to their own divine nature.

In scripture we are told Christ comes with a two edged sword (which I understand to be the true interpretation of scripture- whatever one’s holy scripture is). This is very destructive because it is the divine light, knowledge, reasoning that lays waste to false knowledge and the reasoning of the carnal or worldly ego mind. In scripture it talks about the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem and people understand this to mean the actual stone temple in the city on earth, but I don’t.
We are God’s temple. God wills and moves within us and when Christ comes or awakens within our consciousness, he tears the temple apart, he leaves no stone unturned.

Most people (and I am going to come across here as a real shit, if I already haven’t) have Satan seated on the throne within them, and I am speaking about Consciousness because Satan is the personification of a consciousness. Jerusalem is God’s city, where he dwells, and that is in us. So the Master of the House comes to reclaim what is his.

So my point being, and from my personal experience, is that people tend to interpret scripture from a literal or physical level. And we are free (as much as that is even true) to interpret as we want. But when he comes within the veil is lifted. Others can’t see it. The veil remains for them. But to the person in whom he has comes, they can see him. And for the person in whom he hasn’t yet come, but they believe in him, believe he is coming (that he is within and at the appointed time will appear (or make himself known), blessed is that person.

Peace

Thank you for the reply. I know that many priceless pearls are to be found in the ocean of God's Word.

You have offered many good and true points as to how the Holy Spirit moves us from our satanic tendencies to our spiritual reality.

Yes we are made in God's image. There is a lot offered on this topic now.

The Key to all this is, that we need to be born again to find and bring that spirit from within us, we do not get a direct infusion of the Holy Spirit as revelation from God. We must be born again in the Spirit of Christ. (why else the warning of false prophet and that there are many more false than true)

Baha'u'llah has now explained this in detail and I am happy to discuss if you have specific questions. It is important that we do contemplate what is from God and what is from our own self.

Regards Tony

 

[Cino]

The Key to all this is, that we need to be born again to find and bring that spirit from within us, we do not get a direct infusion of the Holy Spirit as revelation from God. We must be born again in the Spirit of Christ. (why else the warning of false prophet and that there are many more false than true)

Interesting! I didn't know that being born again was a Baha'i religious concept. How does it "work", as it were? Like in evangelical Christianity, with "speaking in tongues" as a manifestation of receiving the divine spirit? Or is there a sacrament or initiation, administered by those already born again, like Christian baptism? Are there criteria by which one can determine whether this spiritual rebirth has occured?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Interesting! I didn't know that being born again was a Baha'i religious concept. How does it "work", as it were? Like in evangelical Christianity, with "speaking in tongues" as a manifestation of receiving the divine spirit? Or is there a sacrament or initiation, administered by those already born again, like Christian baptism? Are there criteria by which one can determine whether this spiritual rebirth has occured?

Good question, a question luckily the Baha'i Writings cover in great detail, otherwise I too would not have an answer.

It has been explained that the meaning of being created in God's Image is that we have been created on the edge of Darkness (our amimal nature) and the beginning of light (our spiritual reality) (Good and Evil)

The spiritual reality is the potential within us, which only by Faith can we transform ourselves, thus the concept of being Born again, Born from the flesh tenancies to our spiritual capacities.

Thus God's Messengers are the embodiments of that Spirit, they are the example we aspire to. This is how we know who is a true or false Prophet. A Messenger does not live for this world, thought they are the true Kings of this world. They show us how to be spiritual beings.

All the lessons of all holy books tell us how to overcome our animal instincts and to become the embodiment of the Spirit.

This is also why an Atheist can be seen as a moral and ethical giant, as we one and all have the capacity, being born again is recognising the source of that capacity and building upon it.

The matrix of this world has all that is required for us to grow our spiritual limbs for the life to come.

There is so much written on this now, that it is hard to know what to offer.

Regards Tony

 

[PricelessPearl]

Thank you for the reply. I know that many priceless pearls are to be found in the ocean of God's Word.

You have offered many good and true points as to how the Holy Spirit moves us from our satanic tendencies to our spiritual reality.

Yes we are made in God's image. There is a lot offered on this topic now.

The Key to all this is, that we need to be born again to find and bring that spirit from within us, we do not get a direct infusion of the Holy Spirit as revelation from God. We must be born again in the Spirit of Christ. (why else the warning of false prophet and that there are many more false than true)

Baha'u'llah has now explained this in detail and I am happy to discuss if you have specific questions. It is important that we do contemplate what is from God and what is from our own self.

Regards Tony

Thanks.

I think that we do get direct revelation from the Holy Spirit, and I say this from my experience. I define rebirth as a radical psychological transformation- or dying to the outer man or personal sense of self, of being a separate individual born of man, to the awakening or identification as That One who is dwelling within and coming forth as me. Who is Christ - my salvation. And That One is the same One in every person (I Am). So I am no longer born of the flesh but born from above.

As Paul said, I no longer live in the flesh but by the faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me.

And, somewhere Paul says, it is no longer I who lives but rather Christ in me.

Yes, the personal carnal mind is rather annoying. I constantly am reminding myself to “look up”.