Arian Christology

RJM Corbet said:
Fair enough, Tony. But if you are asking me to have to read through hundreds of 'tablets' of flowery language, it's not going to happen. If you could concisely explain in a few sentences what he offered, I would be interested to know. Hopefully that's what these forums are here for.

Of course the peasant living from hand to mouth under a corrupt government which keeps stealing even that little from him, is never going to read through all the writings of Baha'u'llah. It needs to be concisely explained in a way the average person can immediately get a handle on, imo.

It seems Baha'i believe Baha'u'llah is the returned Christ, come to bring peace to all the world, initiated by global disasters, unless the people of the world can be convinced to turn to Baha'u'llah before the disasters happen, in order to prevent them? I understand it may not be quite that simple.
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I see It is as simple as we choose to make it and see it all, that is my black and white thinking.

I am not asking you to do anything, I made it clear from the start that all I can and will do is offer thoughts from the Baha'i Writings, to give people a chance to see the world in a different way.

Faith has been around since man can remember and history has been uncovered.

It is in this day when we have global communications, that I see God has given the tools to cope with the required change. We know what all other Faiths have offered, they have been round for 1000's of years, they all promise a great day of peace where we will be one people.

That to me is the simplicity, all we need is to embrace our oneness.

Regards Tony
 
Tone Bristow-Stagg said:
am not asking you to do anything, I made it clear from the start that all I can and will do is offer thoughts from the Baha'i Writings, to give people a chance to see the world in a different way.
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Yes, but the Baha'i writings are numerous and far from easy to read? Can you boil it down and present it in a reasonable few words? That's what I'm trying to say?
 
muhammad_isa said:
Well, do we really "butcher each other" due to creed, or is it more about power and wealth?
That is one reason why I'm highly suspicious of a creed, that was enforced by a failing empire, being the truth.
The fact that the majority of Christians today were raised believing it does not make it true.
Citing early-church history to prove that Jesus taught the trinity becomes political, imo.
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I think I understand where you are coming from my friend. And yet, we can honestly say your wise words of any established religion on the planet could we not? All exoteric religions (churches), -isms, have creeds, that is, statements of doctrines or ideas they want all their group to follow. I agree also that a majority does not equate to truth of a majority belief. "Socrates showed a long time ago what a hollow thing consensus is," to quote a religious historian I read from time to time.
 
Cino said:
Ah, that's what you meant by quandary. Thanks for clarifying.

I don't think working towards world peace depends on everybody adopting the same faith, though. For one, there is a long history of people of the same faith butchering each other. The topic of this thread is an example, actually - Christians disagreeing and persecuting and killing each other over highly specific details of their common beliefs, breakaway kingdoms of the Roman Empire, it's like a textbook example. I think world peace would rather depend on tolerance than demands for unity in belief.
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You have hit upon what is actually offered in the Baha'i Writings.

Baha'u'llah offered the Most Great Peace, but it was turned down. Baha'u'llah then said it is up to humanuty to bring about the Lesser Peace, and this is when he gave the prerequisites that the lesser peace foundations would need to be built upon.

This will be all done by many that do not know of what was offerd by Baha'u'llah, but the key will be acceptance that we are one human race that Ned to work together to stop the destruction of our species, other life and our planet.

You have also identified why past faiths have lost the ability to achieve this goal, they have imploded, forgetful of what the Messenger offered. My logical brain is perplexed at why difference if faith means war and bloodshed.

It is all about greedy men wanting domination over the masses and the age of dominating greedy men is now slowly being terminated.

Hang on, the ride continues and the all the while I see the answer is so simple. We are one people on one planet and all faiths teach do unto others as you would want them to do unto you.

So let's try peace for a while, if it does not work we can go back to war. Peace will require the majority to stand up against the world dominated by a few.

Regards Tony
 
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ScholarlySeeker said:
I think I understand where you are coming from my friend. And yet, we can honestly say your wise words of any established religion on the planet could we not? All exoteric religions (churches), -isms, have creeds, that is, statements of doctrines or ideas they want all their group to follow.
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Yes .. but we don't have to follow anything that we find suspicious.
One has to look at how a creed has been declared or evolved.
Nobody is forced to follow a creed of an empire or organised religion .. not in their own minds, that is.
How a majority treat the minority is another issue.
Clearly there is a power in numbers, and God knows who treats others unfairly.
 
RJM Corbet said:
Yes, but the Baha'i writings are numerous and far from easy to read? Can you boil it down and present it in a reasonable few words? That's what I'm trying to say?
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All I can offer is what the Bab and Baha'u'llah offered, which to me that is what all Mesengers and all Faiths offered.

We are here to know and Love God. That knowledge means we are here to serve each other, to bring about an ever evolving humanity based in virtue and morality. To be born again from flesh into the Spirit.

There is a book called the Hidden Words that contains 154 short meditations, half were given in Arabic and half in Persian and this is what Baha'u'llah has said this about it;

"HE IS THE GLORY OF GLORIES

THIS is that which hath descended from the realm of glory, uttered by the tongue of power and might, and revealed unto the Prophets of old. We have taken the inner essence thereof and clothed it in the garment of brevity, as a token of grace unto the righteous, that they may stand faithful unto the Covenant of God, may fulfill in their lives His trust, and in the realm of spirit obtain the gem of divine virtue."

So this book contains the Essence of all past scriptures and the Word given by God. If this is the case anyone of any faith should be able to read any one of them and see that it sheds the light given in their chosen faith.

https://www.bahai.org/library/authoritative-texts/bahaullah/hidden-words/

It contains both passages of reward and passages of the resulting punishment.

Regards Tony
 
muhammad_isa said:
Well, do we really "butcher each other" due to creed, or is it more about power and wealth?
That is one reason why I'm highly suspicious of a creed, that was enforced by a failing empire, being the truth.
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I think it's about power (money being power). Any theology could be put to this use. The Roman imperial cult had a similar function before the advent of Christianity.

Imagine the amount of power available at the top of a unified political/religious hierarchy, such as the Baha'i revelation envisions, or as the various empires-with-a-state religion had, Christian Rome, the Caliphates, or the various European colonial empires which spread their religions.

This is why I don't think getting everyone to believe the same way is a viable way towards more peace on this planet.
 
Tone Bristow-Stagg said:
THIS is that which hath descended from the realm of glory, uttered by the tongue of power and might, and revealed unto the Prophets of old. We have taken the inner essence thereof and clothed it in the garment of brevity, as a token of grace unto the righteous, that they may stand faithful unto the Covenant of God, may fulfill in their lives His trust, and in the realm of spirit obtain the gem of divine virtue."
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But what? What is descended from the realm of glory, uttered by the tongue of power and might? Of what had the inner essence been taken and clothed it in a garment of brevity -- NOT -- as a token of grace unto the righteous ...?

What does that passage actually say? Who is really going to read through all those words ?
 
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Tone Bristow-Stagg said:
All I can offer is what the Bab and Baha'u'llah offered, which to me that is what all Mesengers and all Faiths offered.
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Neither of these two are members of this forum, however. But: you are! I'm vastly more interested in reading your own thoughts than quotes of theirs, to be perfectly frank. You have much more to offer than repeating what other men said.

I can call up many Baha'i writings and read them, on the internet. My completely soul-less computer can recite any text in a variety of pleasant voices. This is not what I come here for, however.

Let's not make this forum a clone of the Internet Sacred Texts Archive.
 
RJM Corbet said:
But what? What is descended from the tongue of Glory? Of what had the inner essence been taken and clothed it in a garment of brevity -- NOT -- as a token of grace unto the righteous ...?

What does that passage actually say? Who is really going to read through all those words ?
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How do you see Christ? Those words resonate with my Soul as they are talking about the Holy Spirit, the Word of God that has come from all Messengers the Word that was Jesus in the Station of Christ.

I see the passage is self explanatory. Pick up the Bible and pick up the Hidden Words. All you can get spiritually from the Bible is contained in the Hidden Words.

"... We have taken the inner essence thereof and clothed it in the garment of brevity..."

What a magnificent way to say the Essence of the Bible is condensed into this book,the Hidden Words.

Regards Tony
 
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Cino said:
Neither of these two are members of this forum, however. But: you are! I'm vastly more interested in reading your own thoughts than quotes of theirs, to be perfectly frank. You have much more to offer than repeating what other men said.

I can call up many Baha'i writings and read them, on the internet. My completely soul-less computer can recite any text in a variety of pleasant voices. This is not what I come here for, however.

Let's not make this forum a clone of the Internet Sacred Texts Archive.
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The problems with past Faiths is that people make their opinion known over what is actually written.

When one quotes, all get to read what was written.

I am nobody, it is that Word that makes us who we are.

Regards Tony
 
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Cino said:
Imagine the amount of power available at the top of a unified political/religious hierarchy, such as the Baha'i revelation envisions, or as the various empires-with-a-state religion had, Christian Rome, the Caliphates, or the various European colonial empires which spread their religions.

This is why I don't think getting everyone to believe the same way is a viable way towards more peace on this planet.
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I can understand why somebody would think like that.
I, personally, don't think we can have peace until "the real Jesus" i.e. the Messiah returns.
That is because we are weak and arrogant. We all think we know it all :)

The Messiah will be a unifying force .. an authority .. until then, we have to carry on as usual :(
 
muhammad_isa said:
I can understand why somebody would think like that.
I, personally, don't think we can have peace until "the real Jesus" i.e. the Messiah returns.
That is because we are weak and arrogant. We all think we know it all :)

The Messiah will be a unifying force .. an authority .. until then, we have to carry on as usual :(
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Some wait, some do not. :D;);):D

Regards Tony
 
Tone Bristow-Stagg said:
Christ is not defined in human terms..
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Yeah, well .. mental wards have been full of people claiming to be Jesus over the years.

I have to agree with @ScholarlySeeker "Jesus should come back AS Jesus and identify himself as such".
How many "Christ's" are there? :)
 
Thomas said:
Christology of the Arian Controversy:
...
"Now forgive one another for both the careless question and the ill-considered answer. The cause of your difference has not been any of the leading doctrines or precepts of the Divine law, nor has any new heresy respecting the worship of God arisen among you. You are really of one and the same judgment; and so it is fitting for you to join in communion and fellowship." (para 9)

Suffice to say both parties chose to ignore the Emperor's wishes in the matter.

Constantine calls an Ecumenical Council (ie 'of the whole world') for which he will foot the bill for travel costs and accommodation. He invites 1,800 bishops to attend, each allowed to bring two priests and three deacons – 10,000 participants! He convenes this council at Nicaea, so he can keep an eye on proceedings.

Numbers are uncertain, but generally agreed that around only 200 or so bishops attend. Mostly Easterners, notably the Bishop of Rome did not attend, although he sent delegates.
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Yes. I do like your posts but I find some of them rather long. You have a good skill in writing essays.
I'm pretty hopeless .. always have been :)
I'm more a maths and science man, but have become more interested in history generally as of late.
 
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