Did Most Early Christians Believe The Divinity of Christ?

No .. not G-d .. the SON of G-d.
No, here you misunderstand Arius – he believed and taught that the Son – begotten of the Father – was a divine being, but not co-eternal with the Father, nor of the same (eternal) substance or (eternal) essence, but a unique divine substance/essence called into existence before all time and all creation, and through whom and by whom the world was made, the Son being the Logos of the Father.

According to Alexander (bishop of Alexandria), Arius has assigned the Logos a place among created beings (which Arius explicitly denies); from that, he draws the conclusion that the Son/Logos of Arius is merely a man ... This view is still to be found in the realm of popular scholarship and most recently led to the idea that 'Arianism', as a theology without a doctrine of the Trinity that sees Christ merely as a man, could form a possible bridge to Islam.

After the Synod of Nicaea, the debate shifted and became a debate over unity and trinity in the Trinitarian notion of God—a debate which is considered, unjustly, to be a further 'Arian controversy' – the Arian dispute was never about Trinity, but the Son.

Only after researchers began to position Arius within the Origenist tradition, did it become possible to see that the development after Nicaea was not a conflict between 'Nicenes' and 'Arians', as common opinion claimed, but rather a debate on the nature of divine hypostasis—in particular, on the question whether it was appropriate to speak of one single or three distinct hypostases"
(Berndt & Steinacher 2014)

Not the same thing at all. I know it is to you. :)
And I know it's important to Islamic apologetics to press this interpretation – but really it does a disservice to Arius and his teaching.

Arius said:
But we say and believe and have taught, and do teach, that the Son is not unbegotten, nor in any way part of the unbegotten; and that he does not derive his subsistence from any matter; but that by his own will and counsel he has subsisted before time and before ages as perfect as God, only begotten and unchangeable, and that before he was begotten, or created, or purposed, or established, he was not. For he was not unbegotten.

And this creed of Arian Ulfilas (c311–383):
I, Ulfila, bishop and confessor, have always so believed, and in this, the one true faith, I make the journey to my Lord; I believe in only one God the Father, the unbegotten and invisible, and in his only-begotten Son, our Lord/Master and God, the designer and maker of all creation, having none other like him.
(emphasis mine on both)

So Arius believed the Son was a demiurge, an intermediate deity, a begotten God, subject to the Father and Son in relation to the Father, but neither co-equal nor co-eternal as the Father is, but certainly substantially and essentially more than simply human.

Ulfila, Arian missionary to the Goths, believed Jesus was a begotten God, subordinate to the one and only unbegotten God.


(At best Islam would have to accept Arius' Jesus as an incarnate quasi-divine or angelic being, not merely a man.)

The argument might then be if the Son is 'only begotten and unchangeable' then there was a time when the Father was not Father, but if the Father needs must be superior to the Son, and thus Himself unchangeable, then we have a contradiction.

(An Origen answer is that the Son is begotten eternally – it's a dynamic rather than static event – the Father is, was and always will be Father, the Son is, was and always will be Son, because bother Father and Son were before time and eternity.)

And so it goes ...

No .. they did not believe he was G-d.
You're right, my error. The Ebionites believed Jesus was a righteous man who became Messiah by adoption.

Not a good reason for becoming "the truth". ;)
Actually quite a sound reason, and based on Scripture. Hence its widespread acceptance, whereas Arius was more dependent on a Hellenic/Platonist interpretation.

Hence the various versions of Arianism from the 340s on – semiArianism – they could not agree a doctrine among themselves.

i.e. Jesus is not G-d .. not the Father (for Arians and Ebionites in particular)
Nicaea does not conflate the Father and the Son – if that's what you think it's all about, I can see where the error lies.
 
No, here you misunderstand Arius – he believed and taught that the Son – begotten of the Father – was a divine being, but not co-eternal with the Father, nor of the same (eternal) substance or (eternal) essence, but a unique divine substance/essence called into existence before all time and all creation, and through whom and by whom the world was made, the Son being the Logos of the Father.
Waffle .. Did Arians believe that Jesus was "the Father" ? No.
Did they even call themselves "Arians" ? :D

Nicaea does not conflate the Father and the Son – if that's what you think it's all about, I can see where the error lies.
I never mentioned Nicaea .. clearly, there was a difference in beliefs from what was established
by Roman rule. If it was just 'a teeny weeny difference', then why all the fuss?

It's still the same today .. it's political.
 
Waffle ..
LOL. I'll let others be the judge of that.

Did Arians believe that Jesus was "the Father" ? No.
Straw Man. No-one believed that.

Did they even call themselves "Arians" ? :D
You have a problem with the shorthand now?

What did Arius' opponents call themselves? Certainly not 'Trinitarians', as the Arian Dispute was not Trinitarian, but Christological.

I would have thought all parties in that debate called themselves 'Christian'.

.. clearly, there was a difference in beliefs from what was established by Roman rule.
But it wasn't established by Roman Rule – this is where you miss the subtlety.

There was a broad area of belief. Subordinationism / Monarchionism took many forms, Arius' theology was just one form.

Constantine seemingly had no opinion on the issue, he wanted the church to decide and that's what he would regard as the 'orthodox faith'. Same as he wanted the date of Easter settled ... he didn't really care either way.

Subsequent Emperors were either pro- or anti-Arian, but largely on political grounds – they displayed no significant theological acumen and didn't actually take part in the arguments.

Theodosius didn't invent or determine what Christians believed, he believed in what the bishops taught him.

So the beliefs were established by the Church, and the emperors subsequently backed that doctrine.

I only labour the point because it's a common assumption – and quite wrong – to assume the Emperors determined doctrine.

The historical evidence is clear and undeniable that when Emperors tried to dictate doctrine, they failed utterly.

If it was just 'a teeny weeny difference', then why all the fuss?
Because it's not 'a teeny weeny difference'.

It's still the same today .. it's political.
Yep. Where there's people, there's politics... it's there in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism ...
 
After some discourse:

"Did Most Early Christians Believe The Divinity of Christ?"

Answer: Yes – most of them did.

Rough estimates guess around 1.5 million Christians by 200AD, 5 - 6 million by 300AD.
 
I would have thought all parties in that debate called themselves 'Christian'.
Something like that, yes. :)

But it wasn't established by Roman Rule – this is where you miss the subtlety.
The dissension was terminated by Roman rule .. same difference.

Because it's not 'a teeny weeny difference'.
Well there you go .. you say it's a big difference.
Do we not all believe in G-d, the Father?

Yep. Where there's people, there's politics... it's there in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism ...
Indeed .. beware of false gods.
 
Answer: Yes – most of them did.
..but most of them did not believe that Jesus is "the Father".
Oh, I forgot .. that is a "strawman" .. nobody believed that .. not even Orthodox(Trinitarian)..
although they DO believe that Jesus is G-d .. and the Father is G-d.

Ahhhh... no need for explanations .. I've seen them before :)
 
The dissension was terminated by Roman rule .. same difference.
No, that's two separate things going on here:
1: The theology was determined by the Church and declared at the Council of Constantinople in 381.
2: That the State would embrace the faith declared by the Council was determined by the Emperor – but he had no say in what was believed.

Then, in less than 15 years, the Western Empire was under the rule of the 'Arian' Germanic peoples, and the West was 'Arian', even though that heresy had started in the East.

Well there you go .. you say it's a big difference.
Yes, it effects the nature and relation of the Father and the Son. They clearly thought it important. It has far-reaching ramifications.

Do we not all believe in G-d, the Father?
Yes we do. We do not believe, as you seem to think, that we believe the Son is the Father ...
Do we not all believe God is not subject to change? Yes. Ergo, logically, God is always Father, the Son is always Son. So, there never was a time when he was not ... I'm not sure how Arius squared that conundrum.

Note:
Did they even call themselves "Arians" ? :D
The term ‘Arian’ is somewhat misleading, but it's a handy shorthand reference. It's a form of Subordinationism.

Arius had political support, but he did not leave a theological school. He had supporters, but no disciples, and after his death in 336 his theology was dropped in favour of other subordinationist theories.

Again, it's popular to pit 'Arians' against 'Trinitarians', which again is an error. They were all Christians, they were all Trinitarians, they all thought the Three Persons were divine, it's just how they saw the relation between the Three Persons that made the difference.
 
Yes, it effects the nature and relation of the Father and the Son. They clearly thought it important. It has far-reaching ramifications.
OK .. so what "ramifications" for example?
Isn't it more about leadership & power? Similar to sunni & shia?

Yes we do.
Well, that's the main thing .. the devil seeks to divide, and destroy us through ourselves.

Again, it's popular to pit 'Arians' against 'Trinitarians', which again is an error. They were all Christians, they were all Trinitarians, they all thought the Three Persons were divine, it's just how they saw the relation between the Three Persons that made the difference.
I'm not arguing that they did not believe in the Father, Son & Holy Spirit.
I believe their understanding was different from the established Orthodox version of the trinity.
Very similar, but not the same, as Muslims.
You could say that Muslims see ALL prophets as "Divine", in as much as they are not like ordinary
human beings. They do not intentionally sin, as in "Sons of G-d".

Modern groups which currently appear to embrace some of the principles of Arianism include Unitarians and Jehovah's Witnesses. Although the origins of their beliefs are not necessarily attributed to the teachings of Arius, many of the core beliefs of Unitarians and Jehovah's Witnesses are very similar to them.
Arianism - Wikipedia
 
OK .. so what "ramifications" for example?
Well now you get into Christology.

To an outsider, it's semantics. Within Christianity, it's important – Is Jesus God, another God, a demigod, an angelic being, a Messiah, or simply a moral exemplar – a good man.

St Paul talks of 'one bread, one body' (1 Corinthians 10:17) – the question then is this 'body' a communal body, or a moral body, or a spiritual body, a mystical body, what type of body is it?

That's a start, it goes deeper from there, but really that's a whole other order of discussion.

Isn't it more about leadership & power? Similar to sunni & shia?
No. It's more akin to a disagreement about the natuire and person of Muhammad himself (pbuh).

I'm not arguing that they did not believe in the Father, Son & Holy Spirit.
OK. Then we are agreed they – the Early Christians – were for the most part, in some sense, Trinitarian.

I believe their understanding was different from the established Orthodox version of the trinity.
Well the 'orthodox version' was not really defined until Constantinople in 381, so there was no 'Orthodox' before then ...
As we agree, subordinationism was common, but not precisely defined

Very similar, but not the same, as Muslims.
Quite.

Modern groups which currently appear to embrace some of the principles of Arianism include ... Although the origins of their beliefs are not necessarily attributed to the teachings of Arius ...
Quite. You'd have to ask where their ideas came from ... I rather think Arius would consider them heretic! :D
 
To an outsider, it's semantics. Within Christianity, it's important – Is Jesus God, another God, a demigod, an angelic being, a Messiah, or simply a moral exemplar – a good man.
Well, those who claim Jesus is G-d think it's important .. as I said, it seems more about leadership
and power to me.
History certainly shows that empires/nations enforced such a creed, through persecution.

No. It's more akin to a disagreement about the natuire and person of Muhammad himself (pbuh).
??? Don't know what you mean.

OK. Then we are agreed they – the Early Christians – were for the most part, in some sense, Trinitarian.
If you like .. but so are Muslims "in some sense".
We also believe in all three.

Quite. You'd have to ask where their ideas came from ... I rather think Arius would consider them heretic! :D
Well, all I can say is that you wish us all to concentrate on "what Arius said", which is pretty irrelevant to me.
We have already agreed that "Arian" is a derogatory term, in any case. :)
 
Well, those who claim Jesus is G-d think it's important .. as I said, it seems more about leadership and power to me.
[/QUOTE]
OK. I happen to think otherwise.

History certainly shows that empires/nations enforced such a creed, through persecution.
Indeed, the defining question is whether the enforcers actually originate the creeds they enforce.

In the case of the Roman Emperors, no.

And if you check wiki, I'll think you'll find that scholarship has tended to find that imperial decrees were often ignored outside the capital. Theodosius, for example, addressed his edict concerning 'catholic' Christianity to Constantinople, not the Empire.

And the theological disputes went on, with sometimes no little damage to the state, until the 7th century.

??? Don't know what you mean.
Is Muhammad the Prophet, or just a prophet ... did he found a new religion, or should it have been a return to Judaism?

If you like .. but so are Muslims "in some sense".
We also believe in all three.
Yep. So there's hope for you yet!

Well, all I can say is that you wish us all to concentrate on "what Arius said", which is pretty irrelevant to me.
Well its relevant to the OP, and you're the one banging on about him!

We have already agreed that "Arian" is a derogatory term, in any case. :)
Do we? Athanasius used it as such. Now we use it as shorthand for a moment in hiostory, but yes, the proper understanding is the debate over subordinationism, and a church seeking to define what it believes, 'orthodoxy' v anyone else ...
 
Is Muhammad the Prophet, or just a prophet ... did he found a new religion, or should it have been a return to Judaism?
What has that got to do with sunni / shia ?

According to Sunni traditions, Muhammad left no successor and the participants of the Saqifah event appointed Abu Bakr as the next-in-line (the first caliph). This contrasts with the Shia view, which holds that Muhammad appointed his son-in-law and cousin Ali ibn Abi Talib as his successor.
Sunni_Islam - Wikipedia

..so very early on, there was a split, and they developed their own doctrines/creed and authenticity.

You will claim that Arian/Trinitarian split had nothing to do with leadership, but history shows
otherwise. The Roman state eventually adopted Christianity, and molded it as it went along.

The Roman state also destroyed the temple in Jerusalem, and so-called Jewish-Christians were
dispersed along with their fellow Jews.
 
Isaac Newton "recognized Christ as a divine mediator between God and man, who was subordinate to the Father who created him." He was especially interested in prophecy, but for him, "the great apostasy was trinitarianism."
- Wikipedia -

In other words, he agreed with the Arian view, and was considered a heretic. Several Roman Emperors
persecuted the Arians, and deemed them heritics.
It wasn't until 1813 in the UK, when non-trinitarians were legally allowed to gather for worship.
You may already know much of this, but here is some information about Newton and his theology

I'm going to delve more into these myself. If I understand and remember correctly sometime early in the last century Newton's theological works were uncovered and auctioned to a collector.

I was quite fascinated to learn of his heterodox religious views.

Of course here is good ol' Wikipedia for a general summary
 
I'm not sure if anyone else noticed this but a few of us only respond when we feel like our faith is being misrepresented. @RabbiO has even said that he makes sure Judaism is not being wrongly misrepresented and for some reason not many are allowed to post freely on their subforum without the guard dogs attacking.

I'm also not sure why the anti trinity threads get put under Abrahamic Religions since it's specifically a Christian belief? Does that make it a free for all on the anti Trinity folk?

It's ok for people to question the belief. People can ask questions.. that's the purpose of dialogue but to have the same people attacking it and gaslighting it's believers with misinformation without the respect that is allowed the other faiths on this forum. The anti Catholic posts bother me because even though I don't agree on everything they believe they are still my brothers and sisters in the faith.

We all deserve respect and tolerance especially here where we can freely express our faiths and find commonality without forcing others to conform to our views. There is a culture of unconscious bias here. We all should be aware of when we have them. When I first started posting here in 2004 I had tons of them. I like to think that I have grown and recognize my own unconscious biases.

Ok getting off my soapbox now. ☺️
I always thought it was on the general thread due to it being one of the factors that made orthodox Christianity distinct not only from heterodox Christian denoms (which are often sometimes more similar to other Abrahamic faiths in theories about God) but distinct from other branches of the Abrahamic family, and thus part of an enriching discussion.
 
I always thought it was on the general thread due to it being one of the factors that made orthodox Christianity distinct not only from heterodox Christian denoms (which are often sometimes more similar to other Abrahamic faiths in theories about God) but distinct from other branches of the Abrahamic family, and thus part of an enriching discussion.
It's definitely one of the more arguable doctrines. I admit it's not easily accepted because the word Trinity is not in the bible. It's for sure distinctly a Christian doctrine and not easily understood that it's monotheism and not polytheism.
 
What has that got to do with sunni / shia ?
Nothing – that was my point.

You will claim that Arian/Trinitarian split had nothing to do with leadership, but history shows otherwise. The Roman state eventually adopted Christianity, and molded it as it went along.
And I have shown, with evidence, that this is not the case.

You simply keep making the same ill-founded claim, as if by saying it enough, it becomes the case.

The Roman state also destroyed the temple in Jerusalem, and so-called Jewish-Christians were
dispersed along with their fellow Jews.
Irrelevant to the discussion. The Arian Goths overran the Western Empire quite early on ... so ...

The idea that Rome 'moulded' Christianity to their own ends is clearly and demonstrably not the case. Not in the time-frame we're talking about.

Show me where the Roman emperors determined the content of the Deposit of Faith?

It's rather more the case that the Emperors wanted a Church without internal conflict, and were happy to support whatever theological position, as long as they was universally accepted... as theological disputes continued through and after the Emperors, they failed.
 
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Nope. I might get around to it, there's a copy online.

Have you?
No .. but I'm aware that he equates Arian belief with Unitarian faith and Islam..

While he was Archbishop of Canterbury, many Christians were not happy with his stance
on "heretical" belief .. he promoted respect and tolerance.
 
It's rather more the case that the Emperors wanted a Church without internal conflict, and were happy to support whatever theological position, as long as they was universally accepted... as theological disputes continued through and after the Emperors, they failed.
Did they fail?
It doesn't look that way to me. They succeeded in establishing a creed, which describes
Jesus as being G-d. Orthodox Christianity won't accept anything less.
 
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