Did Most Early Christians Believe The Divinity of Christ?

[muhammad_isa]

Revelation is by its very nature transcends logic..

No, it doesn't.
If we didn't apply logic to our understanding of the nature of God, one couldn't have possibly come up
with a complicated doctrine like the trinity
Your logic is that God is a trinity, and the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are all eternal and made of the "same substance".
etc. etc.

When it suits you, you show us that the trinity is logical, and when it doesn't you say that
it's a mystery and transcends logic.

Very smart, but not smart enough I'm afraid.
The first commandment takes precedence over your "transcended logic" , in my humble opinion.

 

[Thomas]

No, it doesn't.
If we didn't apply logic to our understanding of the nature of God ...

Ah, you misunderstand.

I didn't say we don't apply logic to Revelation – that's what theology is. But that's after the event.

 

[Thomas]

When it suits you, you show us that the trinity is logical, and when it doesn't you say that
it's a mystery and transcends logic.

Ah, but that's the Nature of the Divine, isn't it? Does not the Muslim engage in theology, and does s/he not acknowledge that the Divine transcends all being, all knowing, all understanding?

And yet the faith of the humble believer, be s/he Jew, Christian, Muslim ... is at its most profound when it is at its most simple.

That to me, my friend, is the mystery of our very being.

When I Heard the Learn'd Astronomer
When I heard the learn'd astronomer;
When the proofs, the figures, were ranged in columns before me;
When I was shown the charts and the diagrams, to add, divide, and measure them;
When I, sitting, heard the astronomer, where he lectured with much applause in the lecture room,
How soon, unaccountable, I became tired and sick;
Till rising and gliding out, I wander'd off by myself,
In the mystical moist night-air, and from time to time,
Look'd up in perfect silence at the stars.

Walt Whitman, 1865.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Ah, you misunderstand.

I didn't say we don't apply logic to Revelation – that's what theology is..

Thankyou..

Ah, but that's the Nature of the Divine, isn't it? Does not the Muslim engage in theology, and does s/he not acknowledge that the Divine transcends all being, all knowing, all understanding?

No .. the Muslim does not ignore the unity of God [ the first commandment ], and claim that God is a trinity.
Furthermore, there is no mystery or illogicality that derives from the relationship between the Father and the Son.
..sorry.

You'll have to be more particular if you want to suggest that Muslims claim that the Divine transcends all understanding.

 

[RJM]

God reveals stuff to prophets? God reveals -- as in ... divine revelation? Or does it all just come from human logic? God is One. Does that come from human logic?

 

[muhammad_isa]

God is One. Does that come from human logic?

I wouldn't say so. People have different cultural understandings to complicate things.
Mankind can understand the concept of "a spirit in the sky", but other than that..

 

[muhammad_isa]

1. At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
2. And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them
3. and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
4. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
- Matthew 18 -

I very much doubt whether that child cared about whether God was a trinity or not.
The test gets greater as we become adults.
Who lays the law down? Some scripture, or mankind squabbling over what God is?

How many children in the world are victims of this? Too many to count!
Pointing fingers at Christians or Muslims doesn't help.
The only thing that can help is UNITY.
Imagine that .. the United Kingdom of heaven.
The new Jerusalem .. I'm beginning to sound like a JW

 

[Cino]

.. I'm beginning to sound like a JW

Or like the Baha'i. Unity is their thing, too.

Doesn't your call to unity just invite in the squabblers, to fight it out over exactly what that unity should be?

The theologians you so dislike, aren't they just trying to define a kind of unity they all can rally to?

What do you propose to do differently?

 

[muhammad_isa]

What do you propose to do differently?

What can I do?
I can either withdraw from society, isolating myself, or I can participate and converse with others.
I'm convinced that the apocalypse will eventually take place, as are the JW's. I can't stop it.

I have been a practicing Muslim [ Unitarian ] for over 40 years and been on Pilgrimage to Macca.
I am a real Sheik [ old man ]

The theologians you so dislike, aren't they just trying to define a kind of unity they all can rally to?

You mean the Nicene Christians?
What are they calling to? It seems to change so often, who can be sure?
There is no magic in bringing peace to the world.
What is the difference between a humanist and a Nicene Christian?
They both want secular governments and say that you must "love your neighbour"..
..is that all there is to it?

No. It is a pipe dream. It's all about wealth and power.
Peace cannot happen without global Divine law.
..and that doesn't look likely to happen until Divine intervention.
i.e. the return of Jesus

 

[muhammad_isa]

Do I want to live in a modern Muslim country?
No .. I don't.

1. I'm a UK national and born in UK
2. I distrust the political setups
3. The world is in a mess and which countries [ if any ] are really following Divine law

It's all oil .. it has destroyed not just the environment, but people's piety and integrity

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...-and-private-military-contractors-new-report/

What a mess!

 

[muhammad_isa]

..so, do Muslims claim that the Divine transcends all understanding?
No .. that is not their theology.

The Unity
--------------
1. Say: He is the God, the One and Only!
2. The God, the Eternal, Absolute;
3. Lam yalid wa lam yūlad *
4. And there is none like unto Him.
- Quran 112 -

* Explanation
----------------
lam = (particle) did not, was not

yalid = give birth to, generate, produce, sire, beget
ya is an imperfect prefix, the root is w-l-d

wa = and, and also

lam = (particle) not, did not, was not

yulad = birthed, born, generated, produced, sired, begotten
yu is imperfect prefix, the root is w-l-d

 

[Thomas]

..so, do Muslims claim that the Divine transcends all understanding?
No .. that is not their theology.

And according to the Quran, "No vision can grasp him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things."

 

[muhammad_isa]

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
- John 3:16 -

Hmm .. Who put gospel of John in the Bible? .. it is heretical

Early Christian tradition, first attested by Irenaeus (c. 130 – c. 202 AD), identified this disciple with John the Apostle, but most scholars have abandoned this hypothesis or hold it only tenuously

So what does monogenes (only begotten son) mean?
The first definition is "pertaining to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship."
The second definition is "pertaining to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind."

..so is "begotten" a mistranslation?

 

[muhammad_isa]

In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God
- John 1:1 -

Yes, very philosophical .. but did Jesus call himself the Logos?
The idea of Logos is just Greek philosophy, isn't it?

Why did John [ whoever he was ] write that?
It ends up with The Logos WAS God .. Is the Logos still God today?
If it mean the Logos IS God, then how can the Logos be WITH God.

What???
I'm sorry ..but it reads a bit like a fairy tale to me. What you would call "gnostic", I suppose.

 

[Thomas]

Hmm .. Who put gospel of John in the Bible? .. it is heretical

In your opinion, natch.

..so is "begotten" a mistranslation?

Nope.

 

[Thomas]

.. but did Jesus call himself the Logos?

Yes, in a number of cases He uses figurative language:
"I am the light of the world" (John 8:12) and "I am the way, the truth, and the life." (John 14:6).

The idea of Logos is just Greek philosophy, isn't it?

Well its a term from the Greek lexicon that John's audience would have understood. The Hebrew equivalent is Memra, I suppose. Sophia is another Greek term, and again Shekinah its Hebrew equivalent.

Well why invent words when a viable word already exists? Same with Islam, especially the Moslem Neoplatonist theologian/philosophers.

What??? I'm sorry ..but it reads a bit like a fairy tale to me.

Well each to his own ... I suppose Islam sounds like a fairy tale to a lot of people.

What you would call "gnostic", I suppose.

I wouldn't call it gnostic personally, that was an assumption that's long since passed its use-by date.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..so is "begotten" a mistranslation?

Nope.

begotten: Something is begotten when it's been generated by procreation — in other words, it's been fathered. A somewhat old fashioned adjective, begotten is the past participle of the verb beget, which means to father or produce as offspring

I don't see how there is any difference between "there is a time when the Son was not" and being begotten.
perhaps you would like to tell us?

I wouldn't call it gnostic personally..

..just John's opinion, then

 

[Thomas]

I don't see how there is any difference between "there is a time when the Son was not" and being begotten. perhaps you would like to tell us?

I have. The Son is eternally begotten. (Logically, if there was a time when the Son was not, there was a time when the Father was not the Father.)
God is eternal, immutable, etc. Father and Son are analogous terms to describe the dynamic interplay between Divine Being and Divine Knowing. It's not a fixed temporal thing – we all know that whatever we say about God, be s/he Jew, Christian or Muslim ... it's never the whole story.

..just John's opinion, then

But you can be excused for thinking so – scholars assumed as much until materials came to light regarding Jewish mystical speculation (and gnostic mystical speculation). John never really fits in with the 'gnostic' cosmology ... the idea of a 'gnostic John' has long been consigned to the bin.

 

[muhammad_isa]

God is eternal, immutable, etc. Father and Son are analogous terms to describe the dynamic interplay between Divine Being and Divine Knowing.

I'm aware of that..

The Son is eternally begotten. (Logically, if there was a time when the Son was not, there was a time when the Father was not the Father.)

No, that makes no sense. Using the word "begotten" in this sense is inaccurate.
Eternal means "always was and always will be"

It's like saying that the Son always was and always will be the Father's generated progeny. That is a contradiction.

One of the most important trinitarian theologians in the early church—-Augustine of Hippo (354-430) talks about "eternal generation" ..

Personally, I think it's easy to be led up the garden path on this topic.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Coming back to "the Logos"..

"In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God"

In the beginning, I presume, is just an idiom .. because God has no beginning
..and why he wants to open his "gospel" with a logos is more confusing than anything else.
After all, John isn't God, neither is he a prophet, neither is he telling us what Jesus is reported to have said.