Who created God?

muhammad_isa said:
Well, what can I say .. credit where credit is due :)
However, I don't think that it is so straightforward.

Yes, I quite agree that Almighty God loves the whole of His creation i.e. mankind
..but how can He "love" somebody that despises Him?
Take the extreme example..
..Almighty God knows that satan is destined for eternal fire [ and satan is well aware of it too ]
What sort of love can Almighty God have for satan? What sort of love is it, that loves that which can't be saved???
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I actually feel pretty strongly about this and am not hesitant to answer. I also have some personal experience which will help drive my response. How does God love someone who despises him? Because he is not like a man who sees only the surface. He sees deep into that person and he sees something that can be loved and he does love it. He may see this and the person who despises Him can't even see it at all.

However, God's love is a noble and high thing, and it does not come cheap. It's not a carnal thing to be drug around in the mud because that's his heart that is being drug around and the person has no idea how much it cost Him. So, it hurts him. Because he sees something better in that person, something more noble, and it hurts to see that that person can be so shallow with something that is so precious.

+ + + + +
muhammad_isa said:
Now, maybe [ just maybe ], some of us might see now, how satan in his cunning,
can trick us into false belief.
Many people, for example, read the OT and conclude that it is barbaric etc.

The knowledge of "the Father" is vast, and while Almighty God most SURELY loves
the peacemakers above all others, that does not mean that He wants us to be defeated
by evil .. in this world OR the next.
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I don't think we have to worry too much about being defeated, that would be satan's (or place your psychological equivalent here ________) problem.
 
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Of course, as I remind from time to time, Judaism has primarily viewed the satan - because it is a job title not a name - as an angel who works for G-d.
 
stranger said:
I don't think we have to worry too much about being defeated, that would be satan's (or place your psychological equivalent here ________) problem.
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satan's problem? How so?
..surely it is OUR problem if we become satan's dupe? ..even if we are not aware of it.
eg. if we think that sin and "the law" has been replaced by love

I say again .. how can Almighty God love something that is responsible for leading us all into hell?
You can love satan if you like, but I most certainly do NOT !

+ + + + +

You might say, that satan is a metaphor for evil .. or something similar.
The above philosophical argument is not negated by that. The notion applies to one who has the INTENTION of satan, in the same way.
 
muhammad_isa said:
If God had to come "in the flesh" [ whatever that actually means ] in order to save mankind,
then why didn't he do it centuries before? .. didn't he care about people enough before then?
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I see this in relation to time, and the eternal.

What the Incarnation does is actualises the principle of Divine Union, in that sense the Incarnation is the manifestation of the archetype.

Something that exists eternally in God, was there was 'time' ... out of the 'necessity' of its own Perfection, manifests Itself in a way that is physical and actual in the world.

So something happens, at a particular place, at a particular time, Jesus does something that neither spirits nor angels can do, "But Jesus bowing himself down, wrote with his finger on the ground" (John 8:6). That whole diorama in John 8 is the whole thing summed up, right there.

+++

What happens in the world happens in space and time. But nothing 'happens' in eternity; there is no 'before' nor 'after' in the eternal, there is just the eternal.

So, in that sense, the saved were saved right from the very beginning, saved before the world was made.
 
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Thomas said:
What happens in the world happens in space and time. But nothing 'happens' in eternity; there is no 'before' nor 'after' in the eternal, there is just the eternal.
So, in that sense, the saved were saved right from the very beginning, saved before the world was made.
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Careful .. you'll be converting to Calvinism next. :)
 
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Thomas said:
But Jesus bowing himself down, wrote with his finger on the ground" (John 8:6).
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Then looking up, he said: Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone"

What a brilliant reply Jesus gave them!

And then Jesus (born without sin) asked her: "Woman, where are your accusers?"
"They have gone, Master," she said.
"Nor do I accuse you," Jesus replied. "Go your way and sin no more."

I've never before thought about how by writing on the ground, he was 'grounding' the reality of his own incarnation.

Thank you @Thomas
RabbiO said:
Of course, as I remind from time to time, Judaism has primarily viewed the satan - because it is a job title not a name - as an angel who works for G-d.
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This is such an interesting observation, and again quite a new thought for me
 
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@stranger .. this latest exchange has come about from @RJM Corbet saying

"God responds to all sincere prayer, in a way the person knows quite clearly, although he may not be able to explain it -- any time, any place, any faith. IMO"

I pointed out that a person who worships satan cannot have their prayers answered.
I went on to explain why.

I am NOT saying that a person who doesn't know that they are worshipping satan cannot have their prayers answered.
Do you understand me? It is all about intention.

Do we know what a person's intention is? We can only imagine.
 
Thomas said:
Well as you insist we can't possibly know what Origen believed, who's to say?
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muhammad_isa said:
@stranger .. this latest exchange has come about from @RJM Corbet saying

"God responds to all sincere prayer, in a way the person knows quite clearly, although he may not be able to explain it -- any time, any place, any faith. IMO"

I pointed out that a person who worships satan cannot have their prayers answered.
I went on to explain why.

I am NOT saying that a person who doesn't know that they are worshipping satan cannot have their prayers answered.
Do you understand me? It is all about intention.

Do we know what a person's intention is? We can only imagine.
Click to expand...

Yes, but does not the heart have it's own intention? One that might be underneath the conscious level? Is this what God sees, hears? The deep that is in the heart (spirit) calls to the deep that is God.

As far as what Origen believed, he believed to be subjected to Christ was to be saved by him. Could post something on that if everyone is okay with it.
 
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We think, indeed, that the goodness of God, through His Christ, may recall all His creatures to one end, even His enemies being conquered and subdued. For thus says holy Scripture, "The Lord said to My Lord, Sit Thou at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool."

And if the meaning of the prophet's language here be less clear, we may ascertain it from the Apostle Paul, who speaks more openly, thus: "For Christ must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet." But if even that unreserved declaration of the apostle do not sufficiently inform us what is meant by "enemies being placed under His feet," listen to what he says in the following words, "For all things must be put under Him."

What, then, is this "putting under" by which all things must be made subject to Christ? I am of opinion that it is this very subjection by which we also wish to be subject to Him, by which the apostles also were subject, and all the saints who have been followers of Christ. For the name "subjection," by which we are subject to Christ, indicates that the salvation which proceeds from Him belongs to His subjects, agreeably to the declaration of David, "Shall not my soul be subject unto God? From Him cometh my salvation."

Origen. The Works of Origen: De Principiis, Letters of Origen, Origen Against Celsus

(edit: paragraphs added to make reading easier)
 
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Note: "For Christ must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet."

To be subdued is to be saved. The love of God can do no other, he cannot harm those he has subdued. IMO

Who will be subdued? Everyone, all things, things above, things below. This is just very common knowledge. Anyone who knows just a bit of the depths of God's love knows these things.

No need for fancy books filling the head full of knowledge, they will never teach you that, it comes from experience, from suffering, from heartache, and then from the love that reaches deeper than all these things. Blood that cleanses, deeper than all my stain. Oh, and guilt too, it can cleanse.

Okay, hopefully done for a bit.
 
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stranger said:
Note: "For Christ must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet."
Click to expand...

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
- 1 Corinthians 15 -

Isn't this referring to Jesus' second coming? Just as the Book of Revelation makes reference to?

stranger said:
No need for fancy books filling the head full of knowledge..
Click to expand...

As I always point out, it doesn't have to be either/or.
We need knowledge of all types. If we go and study different subjects in a university, for example, there is benefit in that.
Science isn't atheistic. Neither is theology just ignorant speculation.
 
RJM Corbet said:
How do you know this? Do you know it from the words of a book?

Other books say he died on the cross, descended into hell and conquered it, was resurrected, and left the Holy Spirit as 'wonderful counsellor' before ascending, having accomplished all he had to do on Earth, having only needed to do it once -- the ultimate sacrifice -- for all the rest of time..
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That is rhubarb.. :)
Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah. What do you think Messiah MEANS?

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
- Matthew 24 -

..so Jesus is warning us that some people will claim to be him .. don't believe them !


29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
- Matthew 24 -

It is clear from the above verses that the Messiah will return at some point in time.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
- Revelation 19 -

I would have thought that it was VERY clear from this that Jesus, peace be with him, has not yet "accomplished all he had to do on Earth" !
 
Me: I ask you why you would rather stick to a philosophy [ belief system ] in which it is "all a mystery" ?
@RJM Corbet : Common God given goose sense

:confused: I think perhaps geese have got more sense than we have?

I remember when I was 20 years old. People used to ask me if I believed in God?
My reply was yes, I do.
They then proceeded to encourage me to follow their particular "flavour" of belief.
I would then "turn off", and say that I wasn't interested in all the "bells and whistles".

I can remember why I did that. I just wanted to get on with what I was already doing.
Things changed. I took steps towards God, and He manifested Himself to me.

Unsolved mysteries that cannot be solved could mean that we don't really WANT to solve them.
Surely we belong to God .. and to Him we will return.
 
muhammad_isa said:
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
- 1 Corinthians 15 -

Isn't this referring to Jesus' second coming? Just as the Book of Revelation makes reference to?
Click to expand...

In order to reign and subdue enemies, power over them is needed. Once all enemies have been put underfoot, power over them is no long needed. They (who were once enemies but are now the saved) are then free. The son becomes subject to the father and then God becomes all in all. The principle works any time, end of time, etc.



muhammad_isa said:
As I always point out, it doesn't have to be either/or.
We need knowledge of all types. If we go and study different subjects in a university, for example, there is benefit in that.
Science isn't atheistic. Neither is theology just ignorant speculation.
Click to expand...

Does for me because I can't do classrooms. It's true what you say but if it does not find fertility and fruition in the heart through experience, it's dung, spiritually speaking. Exoterically speaking, it becomes dogma. (but not dung)
 
muhammad_isa said:
I would have thought that it was VERY clear from this that Jesus, peace be with him, has not yet "accomplished all he had to do on Earth" !
Click to expand...

That first part is kind of long, I'll just try this last one. Paul said (and I paraphrase poorly here): I fill up that which is behind of the sufferings of Christ, for the sake of his body, which is the church... (all I can remember). Means his followers participate, although to a much lesser extent, in his ministry through the power of the holy spirit. Paul at one time said he was happy to be poured out (as an offering).

But he suffered from that terrible temptation that all who follow Jesus in a path of sacrifice suffer: knowledge that those he gives sacrifice for are not worthy and might never understand it.

Think also of Jonah angry because Nineveh seemed to just be oblivious (he would have preferred them a smoking ruin). He is reproved by God, chided with, treated gently. Seems like there might of been some symbolism in there somewhere but I forget. In the end, the one who gives sacrifice has to give it freely, asking nothing in return from God or man.
 
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