Fulfilment of a modern pro-Zionist prophecy in the Quran

[Thomas]

Thomas, everybody is aware of the House of Wisdom in Baghdad, the society of Moorish Spain and the Jewish-Muslim society in mediaeval North Africa.

Then I must profess my ignorance, in the case of the House of Wisdom, I know only in passing, and no idea about J-M society in medieval NA.

As for Moorish Spain, I am aware of a level of culture – the example I use is the hospital in Cordoba where ideas such as ventilation, isolation and good hygiene were the norm, something that would not appear in British hospitals until centuries later. As I understand it, the 16th century Renaissance was kick-started by trade with North Africa.

You effectively impose a Christian narrative and preclude interfaith discussion.

Well I'm not getting into a 'I said/you said' here, but I think you're misreading me. I do not hold quite the same polemic standpoint as yourself.

i'm surprised at your stern absolutist statements (even if mere quotes) in a round table setting (although as l say, the forum transpires to be a bit of a loony bin so maybe you're working on that latter basis in which case anything goes - doffs cap).

Well for someone who seemed to imply that the Kaballah is entirely derived from Sufi teachings, this made me smile.

As for our being a 'loony bin' then if that is the case, I'll take that as a reference to a diversity of opinion. If you find that unacceptable, I'm sorry.

Seems odd to me because l thought the occult fraternal orders began with the Ikhwan as Safa ...

Not everything derives from Islam, my friend.

The origin of occult fraternities is lost in the mists of Antiquity. The impetus is universal. The 'Mystery Cults' of Greece and Rome. There are texts going back millennia, and indeed references implied in the Hebrew Scriptures, as well as Simon Magus in Acts 8:9-24.

"What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun."
Ecclesiastes 1:9

I don't get how esoteric makes a religion authentic.

You misread me. By authentic religion I was distancing myself from pseudo religion. Probably better we left that one go ...

What I meant was, authentic religion, or perhaps authentic Revelation, speaks to the whole person, in all places and at all times. It will necessarily be couched in the language of the day, but its message is timeless and universal, by virtue of its Source.

But l'll stick to my previous statements that Islam has no esoteric element. Feel free to regard it as inauthentic

Thank you, I regard it as mistaken. I'm frankly surprised you chose the name SufiPhilosopher, both suggest esoterism, a seeing beyond the surface.

As l explained, the mystic experience is esoteric, as is paradise, but to make it esoteric is a bad thing. Man shouldn't make spiritual matters esoteric. It's for God to do.

I think we hold different ideas about what constitutes 'esoteric'.

As I have said elsewhere, Divine Revelation is neither esoteric nor exoteric, these two terms are human categories, not divine ones. Revelation is one, and esoteric and exoteric are perspectives or degrees of interpretation.

"Go and tell this people, 'Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.' ... Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed." (Isaiah 6:9-10)

"He (Jesus) replied, "The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, 'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'" (Luke 8:10).

I repeat, it's not to do with God, it's to do with our perception.

Esotericist / Esotericism, these are manmade obfustications, whereas the mystical experience is God-made.

Agreed. Really, as soon as man opens his mouth, there's a degree of clarity, a degree of obfuscation ... it's the nature of the beast.

 

[Thomas]

The story goes that she ran around with a fire and a pail of water, to burn heaven and extinguish hell respectively. I wouldn't reject any of God's rewards nor would l presume l could destroy hell when it's there to back justice up.

Here I think is an example of 'esoteric'/'exoteric' – 'the spirit' and 'the letter'.

In the exoteric sense – Heaven is a reward for our behaviour. Hell is a punishment. Both are ordained by God.

In the esoteric sense – Rabia loves God for God, not in for the sake of heaven or in the hope of reward, nor does she love God because of the fear of punishment. She loves God for the sake of God. She is not motivated by 'the carrot and the stick', simply (and most profoundly) by love.

 

[stranger]

Here I think is an example of 'esoteric'/'exoteric' – 'the spirit' and 'the letter'.

In the exoteric sense – Heaven is a reward for our behaviour. Hell is a punishment. Both are ordained by God.

In the esoteric sense – Rabia loves God for God, not in for the sake of heaven or in the hope of reward, nor does she love God because of the fear of punishment. She loves God for the sake of God. She is not motivated by 'the carrot and the stick', simply (and most profoundly) by love.

Hi again Thomas,

Have you ever had to make a post and not not what you are going to say, just that you have to do it? So it feels with me.
What I feel in my gut and heart is the obliteration of the concepts of spirit and letter... and the full on power of reality itself. Heaven and Hell run through me, love courses through my veins... how to describe it with words... Finding heaven in the deepest of hells, the highest divinity in the super mundane. This is what I see, have experienced.

I dare not ask for more, I just let it flow as it will. Let love lead, let the heart catch fire with all that is God. Throw out concepts, throw out expectations, let the agony and ecstasy of endless life take hold. Lose all control and fall into the Everlasting Arms. Become the little children on snow day. I hope I've said enough there, I'm never sure.

 

[stranger]

Yep. But maybe she truly had a higher love, who knows? But if she did, then l'm sure she'd also endorse my disapproval, just as an adult would understand why their infant is crying because it won't snow, even though the adult absolutely dreads snow days.

Let me try this one again. Let's stop being adults. Do you not hear the children playing? Let's play and see where it goes from there... We're out of control, but it is God saying, "I've got you, let it all go."

 

[Yashar]

Thread returned from moderation area to Abrahamic Religions section after editing and consultation with @Yashar

In front of everyone here, I want to personally thank you and the team for all the effort you put into helping me make this fit for publication, Roger!

Re: the OP: l've honestly no clue what you are trying to say and as usual with obscure concepts, they are intricate, yet weak, ephemeral.
It reminds me of Qur'an 29:41: "lo! the frailest of all houses is the spider's house, if they but knew."

I'm open to explaining anything that is unclear in my publication, and I believe there is nothing obscure, weak or ephemeral about the prophesy! Basically, I am pointing out a clear, unobscure pro-Zionist prophesy in the Qur'an that was and is either overlooked, or misinterpreted and twisted from its straight, plain meaning (perhaps intentionally), and/or then mis-translated (also perhaps intentionally) into other languages (from its original Old Arabic). I think there is nothing obscure, weak or ephemeral about the prophesy - it's there in plain language, just needing people to recall verses that they read 100 verses prior to the prophetic verse.

 

[Thomas]

Hiya Stranger —

Have you ever had to make a post and not not what you are going to say, just that you have to do it? So it feels with me.

Not sure I understand this ... could you explain a bit more?

What I feel in my gut and heart is the obliteration of the concepts of spirit and letter...

LOL, so you're one with Rabia!

I hope I've said enough there, I'm never sure.

You've said a great deal, and much to your credit.

 

[stranger]

Hiya Stranger —

Not sure I understand this ... could you explain a bit more?

Sorry, no... I can't explain what I don't understand myself. In such cases as this, my tendency is to think I might have been a bit grandiose. Actually I can't force myself to go back and read the rest of what I wrote right now. Perhaps in a few days, a week...

, so you're one with Rabia!

Well, creatures of my ilk must be careful not to dream too big, but... secretly, secretly, we might yearn for heaven, for beauty.

You've said a great deal, and much to your credit.

Thanks! But, on the downside, I learned long ago not to operate on credit. It always comes due eventually. Gifts are ok I guess, nothing owed there. But essentially, if the money is not there and immediate, no fine dining for me. It's back to a sandwich and a can of beans.