Thoughts on Incarnation

In Galatians: "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons" (4:4-5, written c45-55AD)
Hi Thomas- always a great subject. When the fullness of the time was come......Paul also says that he was one born out of due time. And in the NT we continually read about a time (the last days, end times, the last day, waiting for the coming of Christ).

I understand that the first coming of Jesus to be when IHVH descended into creation filling all. I believe every person born of woman is the Son of God, but born as the sin man, of sin. Christ is sleeping in every person. The second appearance is when he arises or awakens within (each person in their due time), he comes as the sinless. The second born who will rule the first born. (Being the first born of the living.)

Paul tells us the story of Abraham is allegory.
 
  • Like
Reactions: wil
Again, Chalcedon confirmed that the two natures, the one human, the other divine, cohere in the Person of Christ:
"One and the Same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten; acknowledged in Two Natures unconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the difference of the Natures being in no way removed because of the Union, but rather the properties of each Nature being preserved, and (both) concurring into One Person and One Hypostasis"

Yes .. the problem I have with that, is that it just doctrine, and devoid of our experience of reality.

Given: there was / is a man called Jesus who performed miracles. This is accepted by most people who experienced them, hence belief in Jesus increased .

Hypothesis: It is necessary to pin down what Jesus "IS", and declare all other beliefs to be heresy.

Much like Einstein, I find many things about that to be very suspicious and illogical. On discovery of the Qur'an
my suspicions are confirmed, and all becomes clear and logical.
You keep on ignoring the fact that Almighty God could be divided into as many parts as you like,
and NOT JUST THREE. It is only a doctrine that attempts to explain Jesus' saintly nature.
 
Last edited:
Own thoughts:

By 64AD there were already Christians living in Rome. They were distinct from the Jews and they did not call themselves ‘Yeshuans’. They apparently believed in the crucifixion and resurrection of the Christ, and celebrated the memorial Eucharistic partaking in the body and blood of Christ, for which reason they were accused of cannibalism.

This is attested historically by Tacitus.

Following from this it is difficult to accept that these earliest Christians were merely the ‘Yeshuan’ followers of a good man miracle worker Jesus.

The writings of St Paul around the same time, clearly express a faith centred around the belief in the crucified and resurrected Christ, moving away from the Judaism of the Old Testament into completely new territory. Jesus did not merely preach and heal, but he forgave sin and sacrificed himself as the last blood sacrifice, to correct the old order, and as the new Adam.

He was not just a preacher and miracle worker. His life and death and resurrection was itself the message.

The temple in Jerusalem was still intact when Peter declared in conference with other apostles that kosher and circumcision were no longer necessary for followers of the resurrected Christ, whom the NT scripture says had manifested himself for 40 days to people, before His ascension.

One can discuss the exact details of how Christians explain the divinity of Christ in Jesus fully God and fully man. But it is not reasonable to argue that early Christians did not accept the Incarnation -- and the crucifixion and the resurrection – as very different from the earlier ‘messenger’ prophets or 'sons of God'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ

"The Roman historian and senator Tacitus referred to Christ, his execution by Pontius Pilate, and the existence of early Christians in Rome in his final work, Annals (written ca. AD 116), book 15, chapter 44.

The context of the passage is the six-day Great Fire of Rome that burned much of the city in AD 64 during the reign of Roman Emperor Nero. The passage is one of the earliest non-Christian references to the origins of Christianity, the execution of Christ described in the canonical gospels, and the presence and persecution of Christians in 1st-century Rome.

The scholarly consensus is that Tacitus' reference to the execution of Jesus by Pontius Pilate is both authentic, and of historical value as an independent Roman source. Paul Eddy and Gregory Boyd argue that it is "firmly established" that Tacitus provides a non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus. Scholars view it as establishing three separate facts about Rome around AD 60:
(i) that there were a sizable number of Christians in Rome at the time,
(ii) that it was possible to distinguish between Christians and Jews in Rome, and
(iii) that at the time pagans made a connection between Christianity in Rome and its origin in Roman Judea."

… Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular …
 
Last edited:
"The Roman historian and senator Tacitus referred to Christ, his execution by Pontius Pilate, and the existence of early Christians in Rome in his final work, Annals (written ca. AD 116), book 15, chapter 44.

The context of the passage is the six-day Great Fire of Rome that burned much of the city in AD 64 during the reign of Roman Emperor Nero. The passage is one of the earliest non-Christian references to the origins of Christianity, the execution of Christ described in the canonical gospels, and the presence and persecution of Christians in 1st-century Rome.

That's fine. It is very likely an accurate description of what went on in Rome in the first century.
However, that has little bearing on the truth about the nature of Jesus.

Rome is Rome .. and Jerusalem is Jerusalem :)
They were "world's apart" 2000 years ago. It would take many days of travel to get from one place to another,
and the cultures would be completely different.
 
Mmm ... In further responding to the OP: perhaps other readers would question were the 'Yeshuan' followers of Jesus still visiting the Temple in Jerusalem after Jesus was killed, or did they hide their belief or flee for their own safety to Rome and other places?

Would they question why did they call themselves Christians, rather than Yeshuans? Jerusalem had its own problems with the Jewish rebellions, leading up to the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD

Just how early do we need our earliest Christians to be?
 
Last edited:
And so in order to get around the simple fact Jesus died on the cross, it becomes necessary to construct a complicated plot to take him down alive, and which in consequence requires a complicated conspiracy theory around the writings of Paul, etc.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor
Ocham's razor (Latin: novacula Occami), or the principle of parsimony or law of parsimony (Latin: lex parsimoniae) is the problem-solving principle that "entities should not be multiplied without necessity", or more simply, the simplest explanation is usually the best one.
 
And so in order to get around the simple fact Jesus died on the cross, it becomes necessary to construct a complicated plot to take him down alive, and which in consequence requires a complicated conspiracy theory around the writings of Paul, etc.

I assume you say that because the Qur'an says that Jesus didn't actually die on the cross,
although it looked like he did.

There is nothing complicated about that, really.

Due to the Gospels' portrayal of Pilate as reluctant to execute Jesus,
the Ethiopian Church believes that Pilate became a Christian and venerates him as a martyr and saint.


Furthermore, Paul was not actually a disciple of Jesus, in the sense of being one of his companions,
and that would naturally have a bearing on things.
 
Last edited:
Ok, if the Ethiopian Church does accept the Pilate conversion story in the apocrypha, they nevertheless also accept the death on the cross and the resurrection of Christ.

The living resurrected Christ appeared to Paul on the road to Ephesus, and made him an apostle. Unless he made it all up, in order to be beaten and abused and eventually executed. Many don't like it. They don't have to. For a divine intervention it has lasted pretty well ... and many others have fallen by the wayside
 
Last edited:
Is the Sun in a mirror in any way the descent of the Sun into the mirror?
To start, I see the sun as a The Sun is a G-type main-sequence star. One among countless others ...

Finally, I agree if the mirror acts as per the light within that mirror, then we see a mirror acting as God has so Willed. We might even say the Mirror was the `Self of God`.
You might, we would not.
 
Which does not mean Christianities stance is necessarily correct.
It's a question for each of us to answer.

The best reflection is that the Jews still stand strong waiting for the Messiah.
Indeed they do.

Yet, Christ has come and great Nations built, Muhammad has come and great Nations Built. The Bab and Baha'u'llah came and that Message has gone global in the blink of an eye.
Contextual. The spread of Christianity was epidemic in the first generations, without modern media enablement.

So logically many people have got it wrong, which in turn is shown in the Biblical to be a great sign.
Depends on what logical model you're working.

Biblically, this is most likely to be the clouds that Christ returns upon, and we know in the material world that clouds prevent the brightness of the Sun shining through to earth, likewise the clouds Christ returns upon are those that prevent the light of God shining upon our hearts.
Not necessarily. You seem to depend rather heavily on applying material definitions to spiritual matters, that's an error in my book.

So much has been offered from God, why can we not embrace it all as a united whole?
Because not every 'messenger' comes from God. Beware false prophets, as the saying goes ...
 
  • Like
Reactions: RJM
The living resurrected Christ appeared to Paul on the road to Ephesus, and made him an apostle. Unless he made it all up, in order to be beaten and abused and eventually executed.

I don't think he did make it up. Lots of us have religious experiences / dreams.
 
The living resurrected Christ appeared to Paul on the road to Ephesus, and made him an apostle. Unless he made it all up, in order to be beaten and abused and eventually executed. Many don't like it. They don't have to. For a divine intervention it has lasted pretty well ... and many others have fallen by the wayside
I consider this allegory, for Paul literally seeing the light. Paul tells us that this revelation was when God revealed the Son in him (he found Jesus Christ within himself), and that is the message that Paul preached. He also taught that Christ is portrayed as a man crucified on a cross, but that he is the Spirit of God in man. We all participate in the death of Christ because he is asleep within every person, until he awakens. Then we participate in a resurrection like his.

The Bible isn’t history. It’s allegory, dream, vision, revelation.

Paul clearly states that the faith is believing Jesus Christ is God in us.

I wish you brothers the best but my time on this forum is finished.
 
The Bible isn’t history. It’s allegory, dream, vision, revelation.

Paul clearly states that the faith is believing Jesus Christ is God in us.

I wish you brothers the best but my time on this forum is finished.

:( (tears emoji) (hate goodbyes).
 
The Bible isn’t history. It’s allegory, dream, vision, revelation.
You think I said it's an historical document?
I wish you brothers the best but my time on this forum is finished.
Well there are so many different thoughts and interpretations. Sorry if you think only your own must apply.

It's all just words anyway, imo
When it's gone, it's gone

It doesn't matter
Why is anybody talking anyway?
 
Last edited:
If anyone is here to impose their own belief what God has to be, they're in the wrong place, imo
 
Last edited:
The Bible isn’t history. It’s allegory, dream, vision, revelation.

Paul clearly states that the faith is believing Jesus Christ is God in us.

I like your description of what the Bible is.

The statement of Peter is only supported to the extent we are Born Again, born from the flesh into the Spirit that is Christ.

Regards Tony
 
I consider this allegory, for Paul literally seeing the light. Paul tells us that this revelation was when God revealed the Son in him (he found Jesus Christ within himself), and that is the message that Paul preached. He also taught that Christ is portrayed as a man crucified on a cross, but that he is the Spirit of God in man. We all participate in the death of Christ because he is asleep within every person, until he awakens. Then we participate in a resurrection like his.

The Bible isn’t history. It’s allegory, dream, vision, revelation.

Paul clearly states that the faith is believing Jesus Christ is God in us.

I wish you brothers the best but my time on this forum is finished.

That to me is a very profound post.

I can tell you from what I have come to know about Jesus the Christ, that it is very accurate.

I do appreciate, that you may not be offering it in the way I see it written.

Regards Tony
 
Back
Top