Why is it So?

[Ahanu]

Absolutely, I can imagine average Joe noticing the new religious movements. There is the story of Hanukkah, a couple of centuries earlier, about one particularly ill-fated attempt at establishing such a new religion in Jerusalem. There were still plenty of hellenizing Jews in Jerusalem in the first century. There were Roman troops, bringing all kinds of new religions from all over the empire to Jerusalem. Average Joe probably noticed them, but did he have time and inclination to learn about them all, test them, ...? Probably not. He had a living to earn, social obligations to fulfill, a family to care for. He probably found all these things more important than finding out whether Mithras had a new message from God for him, or Isis, or Hercules, or Simon the magician, or the Cynic itinerant preachers, or the teachings of the Stoa, or the Pythagoreans, or the Mazdakites. He probably wanted to stay out of trouble, and was wary of all these potentially disruptive ideas, and if at all, most likely torn between loyalty to the temple priest-kings who were however collaborating with the Roman occupiers, and the do-it-yourself movement of the sages...

And today, it is just the same. Average Joe just wants to do right by his neighbors and his god(s), participate in some broadly accepted religion, and get on with life. He doesn't want to alienate friends, family, employers, and customers by joining what might be perceived as a foreign cult.

Seekers are few in any age, is what I'm saying.

Well said, Cino.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Rather, I'm asking if you can see that by telling me that Christianity has fundamentally misunderstood the message of Christ, that although we believe in the One God, we have it wrong ... whereas we, of course, rather see the error as yours ...

I do understand you were imparting that inference.

I see the hardest thing we face in life, is our own self, we do not like to be wrong, we do not like having to say sorry. When one has a strong Faith, it becomes even more difficult, strange but true.

To me the greatest liberation from self has been to realise that I am wrong many many times in this life and when finding out how wrong I have been, being able to own up to that mistake.

Firstly I was raised in Christianity, so all this is applicable to my own self.

I see that Christianity is of Christ when it is doing the work Christ asked of us. That is to serve each other in Love and when wronged, turn the other cheek. The problem we have as humans, is that we need guidance to stay on that path.

The rest is the history of Faith. We stick to what we know, as many past Faiths still do. Christianity contains the teaching of the Jewish Faith and would offer the Jew should have embraced Christ, yet on the other hand will see it wrong if a Muslim or a Baha'i offers there are more Messages from God, that the purpose of the Bible is also contained in the Koran and Baha'i Writings.

Thus this OP.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Seekers are few in any age, is what I'm saying.

That to me is the answer. I also see there are many levels we can 'seek' upon.

I have also considered why many seekers bypass the truth and embrace the false. This is why I made a comment above, that our own self is our greatest obstacle in life.

In my case I was not seeking, nor was I ever contemplating Faith. I thus see the wisdom in scripture that says all Faith is a gift and that is why no person can think they are any better than another. It is God that gives us life, Faith, or no faith.

As such your comment that the "Average Joe just wants to do right by his neighbours", is inbuilt in us all.

God always guides us and we choose our direction in life, bound in the nature and nurture God has put us in.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

Thank you and I did appreciate you meant no offence. My habit of saying little, almost always comes across blunt and obnoxious, though that is never the aim.

I read my post to you again this morning and saw how rude it would have seemed to you, thus I reworded it, as that was not the intent.

The Baha'i Writings are translated in the style of King James English as the Guardian Shoghi Effendi found that English best reflected the original flow of the Arabic and Persian language.

The translated writings are free and available at Bahai.org or the direct link is here; https://www.bahai.org/library/

So maybe it is the King James English you find hard to read? My first bible was all King James English.

Sorry if I offended you.

Regards Tony

Ah no, you weren't rude.

 

[Cino]

I have also considered why many seekers bypass the truth and embrace the false. This is why I made a comment above, that our own self is our greatest obstacle in life.

Maybe our conceptions of truth and falsehood are too limited.

Do you really believe I bypassed what you consider to be the truth, just because I didn't like it, for some selfish reason?

Do you think I believe you to have bypassed what I find to be true, for some frivolous reason?

I can assure you the latter would be off the mark.

 

[stranger]

That to me is the answer. I also see there are many levels we can 'seek' upon.

I have also considered why many seekers bypass the truth and embrace the false. This is why I made a comment above, that our own self is our greatest obstacle in life.

In my case I was not seeking, nor was I ever contemplating Faith. I thus see the wisdom in scripture that says all Faith is a gift and that is why no person can think they are any better than another. It is God that gives us life, Faith, or no faith.

As such your comment that the "Average Joe just wants to do right by his neighbours", is inbuilt in us all.

God always guides us and we choose our direction in life, bound in the nature and nurture God has put us in.

Regards Tony

There is a certain nobility inherent in the average Joe position. He's not elite, his time is limited, his abilities are limited. In seeking, there is only so much he can do. He'll never shatter the world with amazing revelation or great work. When he's gone, no one will remember him. So, what to do with limited time and resources.

At the end of the day, don't look at it as "what did I miss today, what good did I fail to do?" Just hope that you picked the right battles, you sought after what was available to you, perhaps you grew a little. You did the best you could with what you had. And even more absurdly, perhaps someone was helped, touched in some way that made their life better? Though that last one is a bit of a stretch for me.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Maybe our conceptions of truth and falsehood are too limited.

Do you really believe I bypassed what you consider to be the truth, just because I didn't like it, for some selfish reason?

Do you think I believe you to have bypassed what I find to be true, for some frivolous reason?

I can assure you the latter would be off the mark.

I do not think anyone passed the truth for a frivolous reason.

I see Faith is a gift we can learn by and as we learn to let go of more self, more truth is found.

So the question to ask one's own self and the only reason I offer the question is that it addresses your observation.

If Baha'u'llah is as claimed, why do people pass over the Message, many with not even a 2nd glance? Imagine if the solution to all the world's issues given, and yet the choice is not to even look? Imagine that!

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

If Baha'u'llah is as claimed, why do people pass over the Message, many with not even a 2nd glance?

Again with no intention to be argumentative or cause offence: What is the message? Extensive reading of quite difficult and poetic text seems to be required?

Is there a message in a nutshell?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Again with no intention to be argumentative or cause offence: What is the message? Extensive reading of quite difficult and poetic text seems to be required?

Is there a message in a nutshell?

Yes, the Lords Prayer is fulfilled.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

Yes, the Lords Prayer is fulfilled.

Regards Tony

Thy kingdom come?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Thy kingdom come?

Yes indeed, that is exactly how I see it has happened.

The Kingdom has come as the Lords Prayer evokes and that is the Message of Baha'u'llah (Glory of God), who is the Temple awaited, the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords the Son come "In the Glory of the Father".

This is the day of Jehovah.

It is all that the Christains pray for while participating in the remembereance of the last supper.

As you can see, to me and many others it is a very exciting announcement.

Regards Tony

 

[Thomas]

Hi Tony –

The Kingdom has come as the Lords Prayer evokes and that is the Message of Baha'u'llah (Glory of God), who is the Temple awaited, the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords the Son come "In the Glory of the Father".

The coming of the Kingdom, we are told, will be recognised by certain signs and unmistakeable events. As neither have made themselves evident, the logical conclusion is that those events have not yet unfolded.

There is a vast difference between exegesis and eisegesis, and Baha'u'llah is neither the first nor the last in that regard.

 

[Cino]

I do not think anyone passed the truth for a frivolous reason.

What then do you mean to say, when you write that my own self is an obstacle to seeing your truth?

Selfish reasons would seem to be the ultimate in frivolity, no? Born of nothing but a whim, a fleeting preference of the self?

That is how I read you. You mean something different, as you state. What do you mean?

 

[RJM]

Yes indeed, that is exactly how I see it has happened.

The Kingdom has come as the Lords Prayer evokes and that is the Message of Baha'u'llah (Glory of God), who is the Temple awaited, the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords the Son come "In the Glory of the Father".

This is the day of Jehovah.

It is all that the Christians pray for while participating in the rememberance of the last supper.

As you can see, to me and many others it is a very exciting announcement.

Regards Tony

Ok. It is good to hear it boiled down to a few sentences. What do we have to do about this? Is it going to happen anyway -- Armageddon/breakdown scenario, then peace on earth for 1000 years? Is the Baha'u'allah asking us to leave our old beliefs and follow him in order perhaps to hasten it and minimize the destruction that comes before the peace? Is that a reasonable summary?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Hi Tony –

The coming of the Kingdom, we are told, will be recognised by certain signs and unmistakeable events. As neither have made themselves evident, the logical conclusion is that those events have not yet unfolded.

There is a vast difference between exegesis and eisegesis, and Baha'u'llah is neither the first nor the last in that regard.

I would offer in return Thomas that do not the Jews still offer that about Jesus as the Christ?

The logical conclusion is that the cycle repeats, that the return of Christ is always firstly met by rejection an the infusion of the Message into a wayward humanity, evolves over time.

The hardest thing we have in life, is the realisation that our self is our greatest enemy, our self is heaven, or it is hell, we are the good or we are the evil and it is our choices that make us so. All that is from God is Good, all the rest is us moving away from that light and towards darkness.

There is much written on this now. We are told that we are born on the edge of darkness and the beginning of light, the light being the potential within and the darkness is our animal self. Education is what brings the light from within and it is Christ that is the light. That is why we are given the opportunity to be Born again into that light.

Where is that light to be found Thomas, observe the world, and it is obvious that it found in the Word of God and our ability to put that into practice. Look at all the people that claim to be following One God, yet neglect to practice what was written down for guidance and now fight over possession of a patch of earth that in the end will be their grave.

So much to talk about Thomas, so much promise in front of us.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

What then do you mean to say, when you write that my own self is an obstacle to seeing your truth?

Selfish reasons would seem to be the ultimate in frivolity, no? Born of nothing but a whim, a fleeting preference of the self?

That is how I read you. You mean something different, as you state. What do you mean?

Yes you would be correct. Selfish reasons would be the ultimate in frivolity. I would add if it was a known intent.

My comprehension of the English language is not the best, soit seems I did not communicate that well.

My meaning was that I do not see the vast majority of people make their choices in the knowledge that it is a self based action, they do not do it on purpose, nature and nurture have supplied us all with our vision of truth, a truth which is relative to our experiences and education we have had in life.

There is a saying, a meditation that comes from Islamic tradition, that says that "the good deeds of the righteous are the sins of the near ones". To me that is saying the closer one moves towards what God has offered, the more we realise that what we have practiced and done in the past, was not as righteous as we thought.

It is difficult for us in this modern age where materialism has peaked, where it is eroding our thoughts about God and our actions towards each other, the warnings are justly given in the Holy books about such times.

Thanks for pointing out a logical error in what I said.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Ok. It is good to hear it boiled down to a few sentences. What do we have to do about this? Is it going to happen anyway -- Armageddon/breakdown scenario, then peace on earth for 1000 years? Is the Baha'u'allah asking us to leave our old beliefs and follow him in order perhaps to hasten it and minimize the destruction that comes before the peace? Is that a reasonable summary?

The questions you ask are that of Faith. What do we have to do about this? I see that is up to each of us to decide, it is up to us to investigate what it truth and act upon what we have found.

I see the battle of Armageddon commenced most likely with the first world war. I say that as on a number of occasions 'Abdu'l-Bahá spoke of Armageddon in connection with the "Great War"' of 1914-1918.

In an address delivered at Stanford University in October 1912 he is reported to have stated, "We are on the eve of the battle of Armageddon, referred to in the 16th chapter of Revelation. The time is two years hence, when only a spark will set aflame the whole of Europe. The social unrest in all countries, the growing religious skepticism antecedent to the millennium are already here. Only a spark will set aflame the whole of Europe as is prophesied in the verses of Daniel and in the Book [Rev.] of John...."

At the end of the first world war General Allenby was thinking that was the battle he was participating in on the Plains of meggido. That's another fascinating story.

Baha'u'llah has said the next Messenger will now not come to after the expiration of a full 1000 years.

So what was offered was God's Kingdom on earth as it is in Heaven, our spiritual enlightment, but it was rejected and Baha'u'llah then offered us the Lesser Peace. All subjects that require much explanation.

So yes the future is in our hands, we can all make a changed world overnight, but that is now obvious it will not be so, this is what is written.

"The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody."

All what is offered above has volume's more to consider.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

The questions you ask are that of Faith. What do we have to do about this? I see that is up to each of us to decide, it is up to us to investigate what it truth and act upon what we have found.

I see the battle of Armageddon commenced most likely with the first world war. I say that as on a number of occasions 'Abdu'l-Bahá spoke of Armageddon in connection with the "Great War"' of 1914-1918.

In an address delivered at Stanford University in October 1912 he is reported to have stated, "We are on the eve of the battle of Armageddon, referred to in the 16th chapter of Revelation. The time is two years hence, when only a spark will set aflame the whole of Europe. The social unrest in all countries, the growing religious skepticism antecedent to the millennium are already here. Only a spark will set aflame the whole of Europe as is prophesied in the verses of Daniel and in the Book [Rev.] of John...."

At the end of the first world war General Allenby was thinking that was the battle he was participating in on the Plains of meggido. That's another fascinating story.

Baha'u'llah has said the next Messenger will now not come to after the expiration of a full 1000 years.

So what was offered was God's Kingdom on earth as it is in Heaven, our spiritual enlightment, but it was rejected and Baha'u'llah then offered us the Lesser Peace. All subjects that require much explanation.

So yes the future is in our hands, we can all make a changed world overnight, but that is now obvious it will not be so, this is what is written.

"The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody."

All what is offered above has volume's more to consider.

Regards Tony

What does giving my life and heart and soul to Baha'u'allah offer me?

"Come to me you are heavy laden and I will give you rest for your souls, my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

And it delivers. That's why people go there?

 

[RJM]

Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody."

All what is offered above has volume's more to consider.

All good. But losing the divine warbling nightingale just for now: what is Baha'i religion, actually? These are genuine questions, not meant in any sarcastic or testing way ...

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

What does giving my life and heart and soul to Baha'u'allah offer me?

"Come to me you are heavy laden and I will give you rest for your souls, my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

And it delivers. That's why people go there?

I do not see that is my place to say, but that I can offer from from my experiences is that it takes nothing away from Christ.

I can also offer, that if one is looking for a Faith to give them something, then one is better not looking . I see Christ said if you want to follow Him, one has to pick up the cross, in doing that, which is the act of giving all to Christ that this passage unfolds, "Come to me you are heavy laden and I will give you rest for your souls, my yoke is easy and my burden is light." in this Spirit the world is as naught and we desire nothing of the flesh.

I am still a work in progress.

Regards Tony