So just to get this right: it's unethical to compel people to vaxx, unless they're hard working doctors with daily close access and knowledge of the effects of covid and of actual vaccine behaviour? Then it's alright to fire them?
Any anti vax/mask/virus hoaxers here?
- Thread starter wil
- Start date
Really?
What does the British Medical Association say about it?
3. Improving vaccination uptake, especially among groups or in areas where uptake is lower remains crucial to reducing morbidity and mortality from COVID-19, and therefore pressure on health services.
BMA vital-actions-to-minimise-pressure-on-the-nhs-this-winter
Does it make sense for doctors to insist that their patients should be vaccinated, but refuse to be vaccinated themselves .. without a good reason.
Be reasonable. I'm glad that you are not the health secretary.
Seems the biggest virus hoaxer round here (the UK) is the current government.
Leaving aside the £millions that went to family and friends of govt ministers in highly dubious PPE contracts ...
Now it emerges that on the very day (20 May 2020) Oliver Dowden, a government minister heading televised Covid briefing, was telling people: "You can meet one person outside of your household in an outdoor, public place – provided that you stay two metres apart", as many as 100 people were invited to a "bring-your-own-booze" drinks event in Downing Street.
So friends of the govt were boozing together while families were being told they could not visit relatives in care homes, the sick and the dying in hospital.
This is not the only such gathering, and previously Boris Johnson has denied any knowledge of the events (but his track record as a bare-faced liar is hardly a secret).
A major donor to the party – the biggest individual donor – has said:
"Although I have always obeyed the rules I have never been puritanical about lockdown restrictions so I find it difficult to personally get excited about an outdoor drinks party. But it's the perceived arrogance, hypocrisy and rule breaking that is impossible to justify.
"While the rest of us were striving to follow the ever-changing rules – including myself, even when I deemed them to be excessive at best, nonsensical at worst – those who were setting those rules were, apparently freely and frequently, disregarding them.
"Each one of these new revelations gives greater force to the accusation that areas of the government think it's 'one rule for them, one rule for the rest of us'.
"This is disastrous."
What is tragic is the inbred British deference of the working class to an Eton accent. A famous military opponent once described us as 'lions led by donkeys', in this case at the top of the pile is a braying ass who will happily climb the mountain of the dead to strike a pseudo-Churchillian pose, looking towards his fantasy horizon of his own sense of entitlement and grandeur.
Just to be clear, should there be any doubt, I should acknowledge I really don't like the man ...
Leaving aside the £millions that went to family and friends of govt ministers in highly dubious PPE contracts ...
Now it emerges that on the very day (20 May 2020) Oliver Dowden, a government minister heading televised Covid briefing, was telling people: "You can meet one person outside of your household in an outdoor, public place – provided that you stay two metres apart", as many as 100 people were invited to a "bring-your-own-booze" drinks event in Downing Street.
So friends of the govt were boozing together while families were being told they could not visit relatives in care homes, the sick and the dying in hospital.
This is not the only such gathering, and previously Boris Johnson has denied any knowledge of the events (but his track record as a bare-faced liar is hardly a secret).
A major donor to the party – the biggest individual donor – has said:
"Although I have always obeyed the rules I have never been puritanical about lockdown restrictions so I find it difficult to personally get excited about an outdoor drinks party. But it's the perceived arrogance, hypocrisy and rule breaking that is impossible to justify.
"While the rest of us were striving to follow the ever-changing rules – including myself, even when I deemed them to be excessive at best, nonsensical at worst – those who were setting those rules were, apparently freely and frequently, disregarding them.
"Each one of these new revelations gives greater force to the accusation that areas of the government think it's 'one rule for them, one rule for the rest of us'.
"This is disastrous."
What is tragic is the inbred British deference of the working class to an Eton accent. A famous military opponent once described us as 'lions led by donkeys', in this case at the top of the pile is a braying ass who will happily climb the mountain of the dead to strike a pseudo-Churchillian pose, looking towards his fantasy horizon of his own sense of entitlement and grandeur.
Just to be clear, should there be any doubt, I should acknowledge I really don't like the man ...
Someone should start printing T shirts, lol.
Interests of truth, the doc confronting Javid in the clip above has acknowledged that the tailing off booster effect against transmission is closer to 12 weeks than the eight weeks he mentioned. It doesn't make a whole lot of difference to his argument: it means boosters would have to be bi-monthy rather than monthly to be effective against transmission, and nobody is suggesting that should happen.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/59929638
"Dr Steve James - a critical care consultant who has chosen not to be vaccinated - told Sajid Javid, during the health secretary's visit to King's College Hospital, "the science isn't strong enough" to support the policy.
"The vaccines are reducing transmission only for about eight weeks with Delta," he said.
"For Omicron, it's probably less."
... Dr James was referring to a study that found a vaccinated person with Covid was just 2% less likely than an unvaccinated person to pass it on, 12 weeks after a second Oxford-AstraZeneca jab - he acknowledges his reference to "eight weeks" was an error ..."
It's new information about the effectiveness of vaxx that should be acknowledged, instead of kicked away, imo
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Firing NHS doctors is very bad government, imo
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59927306
... Hospital boss Dr Kay refused to say whether he thought the new rule was fair - although argued that staff were "not being forced" to have the jab, but instead "being encouraged".
But pressed on the rules, he acknowledged it could mean people leaving their current job: "There's a possibility if they choose not to be vaccinated they could be redeployed. And if we can't find that opportunity to redeploy them then the consequence is that they will [not have a job]." ...
Asked how many front-line staff he could lose under the law change, Dr Kay said: "I am confident that we are already seeing a number of staff choosing to be vaccinated. I don't want at this stage to predict or give any numbers."
But he said he was "of course" worried about staffing, adding: "My job is to worry about everything in relation to whether or not we have enough staff here to provide care for patients safely."
Speaking to the BBC's Sophie Raworth on Sunday morning, Education Secretary Nadhim Zahawi defended mandatory vaccines for NHS staff in England, saying: "We have a duty of care when looking after the most vulnerable to protect ourselves and to protect them."
Dr James told the BBC's Broadcasting House programme on Sunday: "My view is that we should not mandate vaccination."
"Normally you go through this process of informed consent, where you weigh up as a doctor with the patient, the risks the benefits and that person's personal preference."
He said he has been written to by "hundreds of people" since he spoke to Mr Javid, who have told him they were thankful that he has spoken up about how he felt.
I've been written to by a group of midwives who say that, I think 41 or 45 of them in that unit will all not be vaccinated. That means the entire midwife staff from one hospital are going to leave." ...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59927306
... Hospital boss Dr Kay refused to say whether he thought the new rule was fair - although argued that staff were "not being forced" to have the jab, but instead "being encouraged".
But pressed on the rules, he acknowledged it could mean people leaving their current job: "There's a possibility if they choose not to be vaccinated they could be redeployed. And if we can't find that opportunity to redeploy them then the consequence is that they will [not have a job]." ...
Asked how many front-line staff he could lose under the law change, Dr Kay said: "I am confident that we are already seeing a number of staff choosing to be vaccinated. I don't want at this stage to predict or give any numbers."
But he said he was "of course" worried about staffing, adding: "My job is to worry about everything in relation to whether or not we have enough staff here to provide care for patients safely."
Speaking to the BBC's Sophie Raworth on Sunday morning, Education Secretary Nadhim Zahawi defended mandatory vaccines for NHS staff in England, saying: "We have a duty of care when looking after the most vulnerable to protect ourselves and to protect them."
Dr James told the BBC's Broadcasting House programme on Sunday: "My view is that we should not mandate vaccination."
"Normally you go through this process of informed consent, where you weigh up as a doctor with the patient, the risks the benefits and that person's personal preference."
He said he has been written to by "hundreds of people" since he spoke to Mr Javid, who have told him they were thankful that he has spoken up about how he felt.
I've been written to by a group of midwives who say that, I think 41 or 45 of them in that unit will all not be vaccinated. That means the entire midwife staff from one hospital are going to leave." ...
Dr James says he is not against vaccination, but compulsory vaccination.
The 'science isn't strong enough' was specifically about the science behind the mandate, not the vaccine.
The problem, according to another NHS hospital doctor, Dr Meenal Viz who spends her spare time online correcting misinformation, is how the clip of Dr James was used by people misleadingly suggesting the science for the vaccine in general was not strong enough. There is a huge weight of evidence from hundreds of independent institutions and millions of people that the vaccines significantly reduce levels of disease and death.
This fits into a pattern she regularly sees online, where short clips, single statistics or lines from a scientific study taken out of context can "completely blow up" and cause more confusion than straightforward falsehoods.
"On the internet, when things go viral, people tend to cherry-pick what they want," Dr Viz said, potentially leaving people with the impression an intensive care doctor was doubting the science of the vaccine, rather than the much narrower and more complicated point Dr James says he was making.
+++
The vaccines are nevertheless effective though ...
The 'science isn't strong enough' was specifically about the science behind the mandate, not the vaccine.
The problem, according to another NHS hospital doctor, Dr Meenal Viz who spends her spare time online correcting misinformation, is how the clip of Dr James was used by people misleadingly suggesting the science for the vaccine in general was not strong enough. There is a huge weight of evidence from hundreds of independent institutions and millions of people that the vaccines significantly reduce levels of disease and death.
This fits into a pattern she regularly sees online, where short clips, single statistics or lines from a scientific study taken out of context can "completely blow up" and cause more confusion than straightforward falsehoods.
"On the internet, when things go viral, people tend to cherry-pick what they want," Dr Viz said, potentially leaving people with the impression an intensive care doctor was doubting the science of the vaccine, rather than the much narrower and more complicated point Dr James says he was making.
+++
The vaccines are nevertheless effective though ...
- They're the best protecting against severe illness.
- Pfizer-BioNTech out-performs Astra-Zeneca and vaccinated had a 25% lower risk of infecting others than unvaccinated people after 12 weeks.
- Vaccines can reduce risk to others by stopping them catching the virus in the first place.
- Pfizer vaxed are 85% less likely than the unvaccinated to be infected with Covid after two weeks and 75% less likely after 12 weeks.
- The vaccinated seem to clear the virus faster and have less of it in their system - reducing their chances of passing it on.
- Two vaccine doses appear to be less effective against catching and passing on Omicron, although they are still good at preventing severe illness – but much of the benefit is restored with a third booster jab.
Correct
Ain't that the issue?
It is the Gvt not the NHS making it compulsory for NHS staff. Why won't these career politicos just stay away from interfering with these hard working NHS people, to get their photo ops and voter approval ratings?
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They should admit they're wrong to interfere with doctors' own health choices and roll this back and let doctors make their own choices, instead of strutting around hospital corridors with a video team in attendance, imo ...
I did not mean to sound rude or combative. I apologise if I have come across like that. It must be accepted that there are possible short and long term effects of the vaxx in a science that keeps changing as new knowledge arrives.
The point is very many people choose the vaxxine against the possible risks. But it is wrong to compel anyone to take the risk, especially threatening NHS staff ... Imo
It's just my own opinion
The point is very many people choose the vaxxine against the possible risks. But it is wrong to compel anyone to take the risk, especially threatening NHS staff ... Imo
It's just my own opinion
It comes with the territory..
Do you agree that the NHS and BMA are right in campaigning for people to get jabbed?
Do you agree with compulsory vaccinations for any reason whatsoever, such as foreign travel?
If yes, then what can I say..
A country has the right to set entry requirements, including various vaccinations. A person like Djokovitch needs to meet the entry requirements of any country he visits. It's a quite different issue, and I think most understand that?
No, don't think you do...
Agreed, but nothing, fingers crossed, showing so far?
I think the issue is where the risk is more imagined than actual?
..just another quack, like me.
The science and the information changes. There are subtleties..just another quack, like me.
The US Supreme Court has blocked President Joe Biden's rule requiring workers at large companies to be vaccinated or masked and tested weekly.
The justices at the nation's highest court said the mandate exceeded the Biden administration's authority.
Separately they ruled that a more limited vaccine mandate could stand for staff at government-funded healthcare facilities.
-BBC News-
That's a good result. I think we can all live with that.
While that is striking to non-British observers, I want to add that social class distinction is a reality in every place I've lived so far (three continents, five countries), and I suspect it is universal in human society, regrettably, I think. The cues identifying class differ, and the mobility across class boundaries seems to be particularly restrictive in the UK, to an outside observer.
About the donkeys, though, wasn't it lizards, actually? (ducks and hides)