Did Jesus Die On The Cross?

[muhammad_isa]

I'm not. The Quran states clearly they did not kill Jesus, nor did they crucify him. You say they did crucify Jesus? It's a bit confusing, you have to concede?

Oh, what???
It doesn't matter what I say .. it matters what the verses actually MEAN !
See post #57

...
"nor did they crucify him" could mean that he wasn't killed by that method, imo.
..or it could mean that God caused somebody else who was being crucified to appear to be Jesus.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Cambridege Dictionary

Crucify :to kill someone by tying or fastening them with nails to a cross and leaving them there to die
He simply didn't die by that method. That is one interpretation of the verse.

 

[RJM]

or it could mean that God caused somebody else who was being crucified to appear to be Jesus.

It could mean that. Do you want to start discussing that possibility?

 

[RJM]

Cambridege Dictionary

Crucify :to kill someone by tying or fastening them with nails to a cross and leaving them there to die
He simply didn't die by that method. That is one interpretation of the verse.

But the verse says they did not kill Jesus and also that they did not crucify him?

 

[RJM]

IMO we can leave it there?

 

[muhammad_isa]

But the verse says they did not kill Jesus and also that they did not crucify him?

If you REALLY want to know more, you need to study classical Arabic.
I'm quite happy accepting Jesus has not died, and therefore was not resurrected.
We both agree that Jesus ascended to be with "the Father".

Yes .. we can leave it there

 

[wil]

This discussion is exactly what interfaith means to me. Identifying our differences as we discover our similarities.

I got it easy. I don't have an ingrained belief system supported by my years of study.

@Grandad and m_isa, rjm and Thomas... I honor you all for your beliefs and even more for your discussion as I know this beliefs are something you all hold near and dear to your heart and being.

We all have a need to stand on firm ground....there was a time (are yesterday? Tomorrow?) Where religious discussions were held with swords and armies....we are no longer on separate continents but all right here at each other's fingertips.

This thread is obviously on fiya because it is like touching a hot stove...if we can come to ...agree to disagree...to honor each other's beliefs as true to them...and embrace each other as people dispute our differing beliefs.

I almost want every post and comment to start with...'what I believe', or 'as I see it', 'acording to my interpretation from X book' maybe even I will be able to play!

 

[Thomas]

Not arguing here, but ...

...overall, you reject the importance of religious law in society.

No, that's quite unfair.

Your religion thereby becomes a voluntary past-time ... and society is becoming fragmented and in danger of self-destruction through ignorance.

Religion is misused in all places and all times, yours no less than mine.

 

[muhammad_isa]

No, that's quite unfair.

Not in my opinion, it isn't.
@RJM has made it quite clear that he doesn't accept a religious authority.
He is in total agreement with a secular one.

Secular society is leading us away from religion .. with its political correctness, and its equations of "equality" bla bla.

X = Y .. and so, X wants to be Y and Y wants to be X
HUH???

 

[Thomas]

Not in my opinion, it isn't.

OK. Each to his own.

@RJM has made it quite clear that he doesn't accept a religious authority.

Hmmm. I don't think he has.

He is in total agreement with a secular one.

Again, I think you might be mistaken.

Secular society is leading us away from religion .. with its political correctness, and its equations of "equality" bla bla.

Again, that's an opinion.

X = Y .. and so, X wants to be Y and Y wants to be X
HUH???

Yes, you've confused me, too

 

[RJM]

RJM has made it quite clear that he doesn't accept a religious authority.
He is in total agreement with a secular one

Shall we have a Shia or a Sunni religious authority? Jewish? Catholic? Protestant? What denomination? Baha'i? Hindu? What variety? Buddhist? Theravada or Mahayana? Yazidi? Jain? Wicca?

Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's: secular democracy with freedom of religion. Get on with your own religions practice. Show by example. Let other people be.

God leads every seeking soul, regardless of religion time and place. All rivers reach the sea. Imo

 

[RJM]

X= Y .. and so, X wants to be Y and Y wants to be X
HUH???

It is the job of democracy to work things out as the world changes and populations increase, with all the consequences of pandemics and climate change -- and the problems and difficulties of letting people have a say in it.

These things are being worked out by voices on all sides: men self-deciding they are women and taking part in womens' sports, etc. It's all being tested and tweaked and experimented with. Society will decide in the end, imo

People in a democracy will not willingly allow a religion they do not follow to dictate their lives. There are problems and responsibilities involved, imo

But it's really for another thread?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Shall we have a Shia or a Sunni religious authority? Jewish? Catholic? Protestant? What denomination? Baha'i? Hindu? What variety? Buddhist? Theravada or Mahayana? Yazidi? Jain? Wicca?

Ever heard of democracy?
i.e.each country has its own idea due to its population
..so why does the EU, for example, insist on imposing its non-religious based law onto its member states?

Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's: secular democracy with freedom of religion.

It isn't though, is it. Modern government is more about political correctness and ignores religious belief.
Perhaps that reflects the majority view eg. religion is no longer important.

I think most westerners see religion as personal. That for me, is divorced from reality.
Without the rule of law, society will disintegrate.
Another example would be the compulsory teaching of sexual orientation in schools, whilst removing
religious education.

I'm in agreement with LOCAL authority eg. Parish councils
..so again .. the EU and others are insisting on centralising law, and abolishing faith.

 

[RJM]

Without the rule of law, society will disintegrate.

There are democratically decided laws. Religious people may follow their own religious laws within the wider community, as long as they do not contravene the democratic laws of the society.

The problem comes with religions wanting to impose their laws and dietary practices upon everyone else. It is not acceptable in democratic states.

 

[muhammad_isa]

People in a democracy will not willingly allow a religion they do not follow to dictate their lives..

Hmm, it seems to me that they won't let a religion they DO profess to follow "dictate their lives" either

..so my original statement stands. Romans never have based their law on scripture.
The vast majority of Christians tell us that Jesus has replaced the law with one commandment.
i.e. to love each other

This means that "Caesar" makes the laws, and not God.

That is not what Jesus taught .. but hey, most of them do not acknowledge it.
They follow Paul and his misbelief. His compromise between Jewish society
and Hellenistic society / belief.

 

[Thomas]

OK ... timeout ... this has gone way off topic ...

 

[RJM]

Modern government is more about political correctness and ignores religious belief.

Modern government is required to allow freedom of religion, within the democratically decided law of the land. Anyway @muhammad_isa I personally have no interest in going on with this discussion here. Why don't you start another thread?

 

[Thomas]

Belated greetings to you, @Grandad.

... One of my daughter-in-law’s ancestors, ʻAbd al-Salām ibn Mashīsh al-ʻAlamī, was the spiritual guide of Abu al-Hasan ash-Shadhili, founder of the Shadhili Tariqa. My son is a Sufi of that Tariqa; and a murīd of Seyyed Hossein Nasr.

Just noticed this ...

A Catholic, I am also something of a 'Traditionalist' in line with the Sophia Perennis as presented by René Guénon, Frithjof Schuon and latterly Seyyed Hossein Nasr.

I had the pleasure of seeing the late Dr Martin Lings, Abū Bakr Sirāj ad-Dīn, talk twice in London. He was a Shadhili.

Frithjof Schuon, who was for a while the most influential Traditionalist in my studies, was initiated into the Shadhili Tariqua, although later started his own, and seems somewhat clouded in scandal.

I haven't replied to your posts, but I do return to a reread them, and they have given me food for thought ... maybe I'll pick something up later.

God bless, and hopefully see more contributions down the road ...

+++

When my first grandson came along, the question arose as to how we should be addressed. My other half settled on Nonna, and I was to be 'Pops'. As it turned out, said g-son could not at first pronounce his 'p's, so I became Tops. Then one day he called me 'Topsey', and that stuck ...

 

[RJM]

Back to the thread:

Why do some Muslims propose that Jesus was crucified but bought down alive, when the Quran states clearly that they did not kill him nor did they crucify him? It says so in all authorized translations.

Repeat for emphasis:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

Historicity of Jesus
The only two events subject to "almost universal assent" are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.

According to New Testament scholar James Dunn, nearly all modern scholars consider the baptism of Jesus and his crucifixion to be historically certain ...

 

[muhammad_isa]

@RJM I think you'll find that that is already answered.

i.e. you think that crucified means he was put on the cross, and whether he died as a result is irrelevant

Your historical evidence actually is in agreement with the Qur'an, which states that it appeared as if he died on a cross.
The Qur'an does not give details, HE DID NOT DIE means just that. It does not mean anything else.

eg. that he was not arrested or sentenced to death, for example