Is it wrong I fear re-incarnation?

[Postmaster]

I can not understand how humans have managed to come to the conclusion that you take on an other life form after death. All due respect, I'm not saying it’s not possible, if I was to put a side the fact that I'm a Christian. But here on earth we have this strong feeling of selfness its something you can't take away from yourself and with it comes with natural superiority. I personally believe that all emotions are allowed, love, lust, jealousy, superiority, happiness, sadness, as long as they are within a balance and keeping true to the bible that know human is perfect! Yes I've felt jealousy, yes I've felt superiority but why are people trying to resist these feelings in the name of religion to be something they are not? I believe if you try and resist these emotions artificially they will come out of you subconsciously if you like it or not! The one problem is eastern thought like Buddhism and Shinto is the fact like Buddha once said, if you try to tune a guitar, you might tune the strings so much that they snap! I came to this conclusion today when I was working and I accidentally spilt water in some oil and what I noticed was that the water did not mix in with the oil, the water remained as it was and even when I stirred it round the water it didn't mix. This made me think and I realized that it is natural and that it applies to all parts of life, from the human race to the spirit and material world.

Don't forget you are a human. You still have to eat life to survive, harmony doesn't exsist in this place, ask the Lion and deer. Resisting it will eat you alive just like an over tuned gitar and indeed that's what religion should be all about Holding out evil, untill your death at the expense of your body and mind and thats why Jesus Christ is my most influencial role model. Buddah all due respect took the easy way out, because he needed a cure for his shocking views of suffering which his father censored for some many years but Buddah could not mix the oil with the water, maybe a Buddist will be re-incarnated but a Christian will carry on himself where he started. I suppose I started this post with the intension of clearing a spiritual problem and that is my negativity towards re-incarnation and with hope someone would prove me right or wrong.

 

[mirrorinthefog]

I'm not going to prove anything to you, but here's my two cents worth on the matter.

The idea of "self" is an arguable one. It means many different things to many different people.

I don't think Budhha took an easy way, the easiest would have been simply to shrug off what he saw and go back to life as it was, perhaps deeming the suffering he saw as fate, as is so often done in the face of wrong doing and evil.

As for supressing our "nature", that has to be done to some degree to maintain order-if everyone acted on every urge they had, the world would be chaos. Some might argue that putting strict limitations on the body also effects the soul, and eventually through these practices (such as fasting and meditation) we become one with our true nature, which is beyond the confining restrictions of the material realm. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with these views, but you can't deny that they do work for many people and they achieve peace through these methods.

Someone truly in sync with his true nature would know how to control his urges so as not to harm others, but I don't think they (the urges) are being ignored and denied altogether.

As for reincarnation, I also am of a mind to accept its possibility: even if I believe I haven't ever been reincarnated, there are those I think that might be, or might have been at some point in time. The conditions that lead to such things, however, I don't believe I'm in a position to speculate on.

Anyway, just thoughts on the issue.

 

[Bandit]

I stand in the middle of these things Postmaster. I hope that I am not reincarnated because once is enough and I want to be with the Lord in a resurrected life after this life.

Consider Lazarus. After 4 days his spirit returned to his body. That is a type of reincaranation. In one way I believe in it, because without it, we wont get our immortal body that God has promised at the resurrection.

Do I think it is possible? I stand in the middle. Do I think that it is a rule as in the common teaching of it where we come back over and over and over forever? NO
I know some people have that thing going on where they come back as butterflies, but I dont think so.
On the other hand if God has a purpose for it then maybe at His call and not ours.

We can't prove it or disprove it, so not to worry too much or be afraid.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Ive always thought that people believed in reincarnation because they feared what came after death. Maybe taking comfort that there is more to existance than this short time on earth.

 

[Sacredstar]

Dear PM

We have a choice fear or love? So why and what do you fear it? What possible harm can be done? Jesus taught that we could break the wheel of karma and reincarnation through healing the self. Take a look at the Jesus Sutra's - Karma thread on CR and the book written by the eminent theologian Martin Palmer it is a truly wonderful text and one I keep very close to my heart. How the Christian church of the East blended Eastern and Western spiritual principles, and how Jesus was depicted as a Buddha-type Christ.

Also interesting that Apostle Thomas understood Jesus and his teachings more then anyone else and that he was guided to go to India after his ascension, so it is possible that the Church of the East got these Jesus Sutra's from Apostle Thomas.

I teach a past life healing therapy so am happy to respond to any of your questions. This therapy helps people with all sorts of problems. We have even had a case in the last couple of years where one of our practitioners as helped a man break the cycle of sexual abuse, he had been a rapist in two past lives.

being love

Sacredstar

 

[Sacredstar]

I am trying to find a bibilical link for you PM where it talks about our actions effecting the following 4 generations.

RESSURECTION

Roman Christianity, and all its subsequent offshoots, is based on the idea that if you believe in the existence of an historical Jesus you will go to heaven when you die. For the Gnostics, however, Jesus is an everyman figure in an initiation allegory. They taught that if you yourself go through the process of initiation symbolized by the Jesus myth, you would die to your old self and resurrect in a new way. The Greek word we translate as resurrect also means awaken.

For the Gnostics, Christianity was about dying -- the idea of giving up your mortal body and awakening to your immortal essence as the Christ within, the One Consciousness of the Universe. This mystical enlightenment was not something that happened after death, but could happen here and now.

You might be interested to read books by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy.

blessings in abundance

Sacrestar

 

[Sacredstar]

Dear PM

Re-incarnation is of course linked to life after death. When one as experienced communication with our loved ones over the other side it is a natural progression to embrace re-incarnation. Science as proven life after death for over a century but of course this as been hidden from the masses. Michael Roll's web site on the Campaign for Philosophical Freedom is very informative.


'The Third Liturgical Sutra: The Sutra of 'Returning to your Orignal Nature' of the Jesus Sutra's by Martin Palmer

The Messiah says all must "clear their minds, and set aside all wanting and doing." (e.g. become a human BEING) Desire and action generates Karma, its causes and effects. For you pay and reap the rewards later.

and the Messiah says "it is this which will enable you to transcend rebirth'.

He goes on to say to the disciple Simon "From goodness in past lives, people come to this religion and through faith they find Happiness.....Simon, know this: You ask me about the Triumphant Law.

What your ancestors have done bears fruit in you, their Karma finds its outcome in you". (3:18, 20-21).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Exodus Chapter 34 KJV

34:6 And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, the Lord, The Lord GOD, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth.

34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sins, and that we will be no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children, children,, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Dear PM

When a child is born does it look like it was born in original sin? On a cellular level yes we are affected by some genetic heritage as mentioned in Exodus, our unconscious mindfield also carries past life memories and our own chosen divine plan. But we can change our cellular memories by the way we think which is why the Essenese taught that 'energy follows thought'. We can also heal our soul of any disharmony that it carries from past lives. Negative emotions that you mention are all part of the healing process the objective is to heal the self and become master of our thought-led emotions because it is this that creates the action that also creates disease.

Fear creates worry and worry creates stress, the BMA state that 85% of all disease is created by stress.

Re-incarnation can be witnessed by your own experience so if you are really interested go for a past life healing, with a good therapist it is an amazing experience.

For instance all the countries that you love this life will be ones that you had good experiences with in the past, the ones that you do not like will be the reverse. A majority of phobia's come from a past life experience. I think there is another thread on this forum about past lives.

being love

Sacredstar

 

[Sacredstar]

I was just going through some of my papers and found this which seemed appropriate for this thread.

"Recreation is replacing reincarnation
for that which took many lifetimes in the past,
is happening right here and now.
You are recreating yourselves before your very eyes.

Death creates fear
and recreation creates growth
of the flower that reseeds itself,
in another time, another place or dimension."

Archangel Michael

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

and for the bereaved

Leaving Our House

You leave the physical realm when the lease runs out and it is time for you to create something new.

As you leave your temple shrine, you bring together all that was, all that is and all that there could ever be.

Accepting the pathways that you walked, the talk and the service that you did provide.

Now reunited with the GODhead once again,
coming into full bloom like the power of the full moon.

Let us pray for the magic to begin,
another time, another place a different dimension from the one
that you once knew.

May peace be with you.


Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

 

[Enkidu]

Reincarnation, as described in 'Eastern' traditions, seems to me to be a natural consequence of two basic ideas.

The primary underlying idea is monism, or the belief that everything is essentially the same thing.

This belief (or realisation, depending on point of view) means that there is some element of you that is the same as (or alternatively, is not different from) 'God'. Furthermore, the element of 'you' that is equivalent to 'God' is the only real aspect of 'you' [because otherwise, there would be more than one real thing in the universe].

On an intellectual level, what the Buddha does next is to say, ok then, what part of 'you' is the real part, and whats not.

And the seeming conclusion reached is that all things that are temporal are in fact imaginary, and that the problem that man faces is that he puts faith in illusion, without understanding what is 'real'.

I think one of the key problems that people have with this is that essentially, you are saying that personality, and all things that are commonly understood to describe 'self' are in fact not real. That is, your experiences, your feelings, your lovers, family, friends, everything that seemingly makes 'you' you are actually illusions.

Putting that issue on hold for a second, what does it mean to say that people are born and die in the context of a monist framework? If monism is correct, and everything is the same thing, then why do differentiated aspects of the oneness exist? That is, why do people actually exist, and why isn't there just an undifferentiated mass that is the godhead? What is the first cause that divides the world into enlightened beings and unenlightened beings?

To be honest, I'm not sure that this question is explicitly answered by scriptures that I personally am familiar with - for example, in the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna makes a number of statements about why he works, and why works are good, but as far as I can read, he never explains why things are as they are.

However, if we take this as a given for the time being, then the question becomes, what is the process that breaks up and recombines the essence, so that the godhead becomes people, and those people can go back to the godhead?

This is the point that the second plank of reincarnation comes in - karma. Karma is basically a mechanism that explains the process of splitting the godhead, and going back to the godhead. Karma explains how the godhead becomes differentiated as actions clump around portions of it, so that they are separated from the godhead. Removing the accumulated karma allows recombination with the godhead.

In this light, reincarnation simply brings together these two planks. When you talk of reincarnation, you are not saying that 'you' [as this term is commonly understood] are being reborn, but rather that piece of the godhead that 'your' body clothed during 'your' life is continuing its karmic process. To all intents and purposes, 'you' are gone on death.

I think its this that often leads people to say that Buddhism is nihilistic (I used to hate that my RE teacher used to say this kind of thing, as I feel it seriously misrepresents Buddhism).

However, as I understand it, the Buddhist teachings (and similarly any mystic teachings) are telling us to identify with the piece of godhead that animates us and which is going through its karmic process, not the 'you' that is created for a particular lifetime.

So, I'm not convinced that the answer above would provide any kind of reassurance about reincarnation, but in my mind offers a (possibly?) different way of understanding what the term refers to. And of course, all the usual caveats apply, i.e. this is my opinion, I'm not an expert in the field and for all I know I've completely missed the point myself

On a final note, I know that I've left a couple of (important) points hanging in this post, but to be honest, they are the really debatable existential questions that would take more than a quick post to get into.

 

[Blue]

Is it wrong I fear re-incarnation?
====================
Certainly, yes.

There is no evidence for re-incarnation, so why fear it?

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,


it may be of some interest to read the posts we've had that deal with Rebirth/Reincarnation in Christianity:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=529

and Rebrith/Reincarnation in Judaism:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=524


we should be clear that the Sanatana Dharma and Judeo/Christian concepts of Reincarnation are radically different than the Buddhist concept of Rebirth. Reincarnation implies that there is an unseen mover that moves from existence to existence, learning its' spiritual lessons, moving from the dross to the purified gold. Rebirth is not that. there is no mover that moves. what is reborn, then, is the consciousness and only some specific aspects even so.

it is hard for people that do not understand the world view paradigm that ancient India had to really get to the heart of some of the teachings we have... consider that we have radically different world views between the Occident and the Orient and you can see why we'd have completely different conceptions regarding the ultimate nature of things.

Enkidu is correct, Buddhism is not nhilist in the least quite far from it, in fact. though there are many, seeminly, educated western folks that do not understand our worldview and, when viewing it through their lens, get all manner of confused.

nevertheless, to get to the heart of your query... you should not fear rebirth or reincarnation provided you've engaged in skillful moral and ethical conduct.

 

[Blue]

Good links, Vajradhara, and I agree with your conclusion.
The focus, if you like, should be on how one behaves to oneself and other human individuals.

But I repeat what I said in my previous post.

Why fear re-incarnation?

What different groups and sects of various religions believe is just that -- a belief system that satisfies them as individuals within their faith. It means little that some beliefs may be of radically different forms, from the Occident or Orient, because every human individual has the free will to validate their own personal affective responses regarding religious 'faith'.

Why should any of such believers 'fear' re-incarnation? Is it just that that some may fear being re-incarnated as something lesser than they think they are now?

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Blue,

thank you for the post and the kind words. i'm glad you found the links useful.

Good links, Vajradhara, and I agree with your conclusion.

The focus, if you like, should be on how one behaves to oneself and other human individuals.

agreed.

But I repeat what I said in my previous post.

Why fear re-incarnation?

to be frank with you, i think that fear of this idea is rooted in misconception and misunderstanding moreso than anything else. with a proper cognition, in my view, there is nothing to fear.

What different groups and sects of various religions believe is just that -- a belief system that satisfies them as individuals within their faith. It means little that some beliefs may be of radically different forms, from the Occident or Orient, because every human individual has the free will to validate their own personal affective responses regarding religious 'faith'.

whilst i agree with the general gist of the paragraph, i'm not clear on the whole "free will" thing. i'm not sure that such a thing really exists in any meaningful way. however, that is another discussion

Why should any of such believers 'fear' re-incarnation? Is it just that that some may fear being re-incarnated as something lesser than they think they are now?

that's what i'd imagine.. though i suspect that individuals may differ quite widely in their reasonings. by the same token, there are some beings that find the entire idea laughable and pay it no heed whatsoever.

the more often that i am exposed to Western vs. Eastern ideas, especially as they relate to cosmology, the more often i have the opportunity to really get a glimpse of the differences between the various religious paths of both philosophies. simply put, the Eastern religions are grounded in a radically different ontology than the Western Semetic traditions and it is hard, if not impossible, to reconcile the two views.

 

[Blue]

Thankyou for an interesting and reasoned reply, Vajradhara.

Re: Free Will.

You are right, this is a topic for a different Thread perhaps.

I will only say here that I freely chose to marry my wife. I also choose, when driving, whether I turn left or right. We may do these things with reason, or we may do these things from feelings, or both... but we always have a free choice.... just as I freely chose to type this reply.