New thought?

I think I've mentioned before, when we were doing our BA in Divinity, the tutor teaching the Morality module observed that we should pat attention to the detail, because one day we might be required to challenge a bishop (the highest office of the Church). We all laughed. He didn't, he looked at us quite hard.

"I'm serious. Doesn't matter who he is or what his status, if what he's saying is wrong, then you are morally obliged to challenge it."

Today, in conservative theological circles, there is talk of 'being in communion with the pope' – if you disagree with any of the church's teaching, then you ain't, and if you ain't, you're out, on a technicality.

When I hear it, I am reminded of one of my favourite theologians, St Maximus the Confessor (d. 662AD) who, on being (wrongly) told that the pope had refuted a point of doctrine that Maximus was arguing, replied, "Then, if Pope Martin says that, he is wrong, and I am the Church!"

But, more than this, we are the Church
 
regarding dissent from Church doctrine.

Well, St. John of the Cross and St. Francis of Assisi were both, for a time, considered heretics by no less than the Pope of their day. I know that the Pope in St. Francis's time reversed his views and came to regard him as a saint. I think the same was true of St. John of the Cross. St. John of the Cross was later honored with the title of "Doctor of the Church."

Since that is the case, it is proof that the Church does sometimes recognize the fallibility of the humans in its bureaucracy. Not saying it has been particularly good in that arena, but there is, at least, that bit of proof.

My wife worked with Sr. Rose Thering. She was an activist as far back as the 1950s, fighting against anti-Semitism in the Church. And she was able to change some Church doctrine through her work. I met her a couple of times. She was one tough cookie...I can say. Just a "presence." And funny...very funny too. Very cool lady.

So, being a bit connected to a major Catholic University and to the Archdiocese and to the Vatican a bit, I can say that there have always been good people within the Church, trying to keep it on the right path and not letting it surrender to authoritarian bureaucrats. I think it is the same struggle that exists in many major institutions around the world. Good people fighting for what is right and power hungry jerks trying to get their way.
 
as to crafting one's own world view and spirituality and challenging existing norms? Sure, I feel all that is great. But, like anything else, everything in moderation. Otherwise, we are just going to the supermarket and picking the spirituality out that we want and not engaging the spirituality that we don't like.

If we are looking at the major paradigms and teachings of the Church over the last 2000 years....something that is time tested that long is probably wise to obey, even if we don't resonate with it.

Personally, I really only focus on the actual New Testament itself and some other authors...like the Philokalia, St. Francis, St. John of the Cross and a few others. Most modern authors and Church "doctrine" don't appeal to me. I do like Thomas Merton and some others. I think a lot of the modern writing is the work of bureaucrats and diverges from the heart of Jesus and His teachings. And other authors are people who, you know, just like their ideas being published or whatever.

I don't take Billy Graham in the same light that I take St. James. And I don't think Billy Graham is at all a bad guy. I think he was, in fact, a decent man in many ways.

But I do believe in experts. And I don't think they grow on trees. I admire anyone who can sit down and write a full book. But it doesn't mean that everyone who ever stepped up to the plate is another Babe Ruth.

Anyway, that is my take on things with all the teeming flaws and endless nonsense I embody.

Just ask my cats. They know I am an idiot. And I feed them and they would starve and die without me. And I still get no respect.
 
regarding dissent from Church doctrine...

Well, St. John of the Cross and St. Francis of Assisi were both, for a time, considered heretics by no less than the Pope of their day...
Oh, quite. Never as clear-cut as some would like.

Mystics have always troubled the church ... and understandably so ... bureaucracies always tend away from those who make ripples.

My daughter is a sign language interpreter. For a while she worked with Fr Cyril Axelrod. Born profoundly deaf, studied in the UK and the US, went back to his native S Africa to find black deaf children were denied access to sign language education because of discriminatory education policies. He defied apartheid to establish many multiracial institutions. Then did the same in the Far East.

Diagnosed with Usher syndrome which led to him being completely blind by 2001. So you sign onto the palm of the hand. Continued to work with Deafblind UK as Pastoral Support Development Coordinator. He qualified as a massage therapist. My mum reckoned him a saint. I asked daughter what he was like. "A nightmare!" (Because he would not accept 'no' as an answer – She thought highly of him – her other 'nightmare' was pillioning a deafblind driver of a jetski, who got so excited she had to punch the 'change directions' signs before they hit boats, piers, coastlines, etc.)

We had some Benedictine monks with us when I was studying. They were from S America, where they practiced 'liberation theology', squatting land with the indigenous peoples, fighting through the courts for their rights to stay where their families had lived for generations. 'Liberation theology was seen as 'bad' by the authorities because of its perceived 'leftist politics, anticapitalism and activism' but those views subsequently changed... Wonderful people, but their road-sense walking down English country lanes was questionable – they survived assassinations by murder squads in S America, but I wouldn't put their life expectancy at more than 10 minutes the way they would stroll along a busy country road ...
 
Another story –

Fr Franco, a missionary, was an old family friend. Turns up on mum's doorstep and says "I want to bring a friend to see you." She says yes of course, just give her some warning so she can tidy up and make the place presentable – she was mother to four kids, and dad was out working all the hours, so the domestic scene was chaotic at the best of times ... Franco steps aside, to reveal his friend standing right behind him. "You can't come in," he says. :D "I could murder you," she said.

Yeah ... we're a mixed bunch ...
 
Another story –

Fr Franco, a missionary, was an old family friend. Turns up on mum's doorstep and says "I want to bring a friend to see you." She says yes of course, just give her some warning so she can tidy up and make the place presentable – she was mother to four kids, and dad was out working all the hours, so the domestic scene was chaotic at the best of times ... Franco steps aside, to reveal his friend standing right behind him. "You can't come in," he says. :D "I could murder you," she said.

Yeah ... we're a mixed bunch ...
thanks for sharing these anecdotes. It is much appreciated. Wonderful to hear stories of interesting and amazing people. Always inspiring.
 
her other 'nightmare' was pillioning a deafblind driver of a jetski, who got so excited she had to punch the 'change directions' signs before they hit boats, piers, coastlines, etc
Um... sleep nightmare? Or real life?
 
Um... sleep nightmare? Or real life?
Real life. By the time she got off the jetski, she was quite bruised! There are many people who work with the deaf, and specialise with the deaf-blind, as daughter and her hubby do, and sometimes this involves, for those game enough to give it a go, risky endeavours.
 
Bureaucracy is a great test.

Fr Franco was a missionary working with the Karamajong, in NE Uganda. He ran a mission station, school and hospital, out in the bush. He was a source of amusing stories.

The 'friend' he brought to our house was a Fr Sembiante. I have only the vaguest memory, but my big sis remembers him well. Freaked my mother out once when the doorbell rang, and sister announced "Oh, it's Fr Sembiante" who we hadn't seen for 7 years (the duration of a mission posting) and just then had no contact with him nor any idea he was back in the country. Opened the door, and there he was ...

He wrote dictionaries of a number of African dialects. He worked in a leprosarium. He was brought back to Rome to take a post somewhere at the top of his order. He tried his best, but ... so one day his secretary came in, and he wasn't there. Instituted a search, he couldn't be found. Went through the papers on his desk, turned out he'd posted himself back to the leprosarium. Caused a bit of a fuss.

He wrote, a couple of times, but our paths never crossed again.
 
Life is full of such little stories. Talking of correcting bishops, one came to visit my mum once (she in her late 80s). On the wall was a picture of my big sister with HM Queen – big sis was President of the Royal Society of Sculptors. "You must be very proud of her," he said. "I'm very proud of all my children," she said. Bishop turned to his secretary. "That's put me in my place."

An atheist neighbour used to rib her a lot for her Catholicism. She took it in good spirit. Then one day he wasn't so funny. Turned out he was due for an eye operation which could result in him losing sight in both eyes. He was worried. "I'll pray for you," she said. Some time later, he's on the doorstep. "I know I tease you a lot," he said. "But I don't mean it." "How was the op?" "A success. Just wanted to say, you know, thank you, for the prayers ..."

We're all only human, after all ...
 
It's too bad none of the mainline churches or the Roman Catholic and Protestant churches ever incorporated the best of modern theology that could have brought them into the 20th and now the 21st century.

The fundagelicals will continue to bite because they need the "certainty" that some people need. There is a group of "Neo-Cat" Catholics who have the same need, different flavor. They are reacting against the liberalization, liturgically and theologically, that took place in the Roman Catholic theology leading up to and after Vatican II and in Protestant theology even earlier.

But theologians of the ilk of Matthew Fox, Peter Kreeft, Edward Schillebeeckx, Bede Griffiths, Piet Schoonenberg, Henri de Lubac, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, Bernhard Häring, Karl Rahner, Hans Küng, Dietrich Bonhöffer, Rudolf Bultmann, Ruolph Otto, Wolfhart Pannenberg, Paul Tillich, and John MacQuarrie (my shining light) wrote their heads and hearts out.. Virtually all of the Roman Catholic theologians who dared veer off course have been silenced.

Virtually all of these theologians pre-dated Bishop Spong. His theology is largely reliant on their thought and writings.The French would call him《un grand vulgarisateur》but that does not translate to "a great vulgeriser." No, in French, it's a compliment. It means a person like John Shelby Spong. What John Spong did was to take all that esoteric, dense, and written-by- theologians-for-theologians writing and translate it into common parlance for ordinary people. He did it very well. What a gift.

But here's the bad news. The writings of all those modern theologians and the accesibility afforded by writers like Spong have had virtually no effect on the life of either the Roman Catholic, Episcopal, or Protestant churches. Their liturgies, bible studies and sermons continue to use the language, doctrine, and thinking of the 18th century and before. And they are all, some slowly, some lickety-split, dying.

The dilemma is that there are just enough "give-us-the-old-myth" congregants and priests/ministers that au-courant priests and ministers don't dare challenge the two-century-old paradigm and risk losing their jobs. In fact, most seminaries don't dig deep enough into actual systematic or scriptural theology to intrigue seminarians to think deeper. In fact, in my own denomination, few applicants go to seminary. They go through an at-home diocese-by-diocese do-it-yourself training program.

Meanwhile, major swaths of the Baby Boomers, about two-thirds of Generation X, and virtually all those in Generations Y, Z and Alpha are gone, lost to the real world and unwilling to prop up the myth any longer.

What is sad is that folks like us have no place to go. I believe most people need community. The Unitarians and some UCC folks are good on community and theology but have no idea of the need for liturgy. Human beings also need silence, with contemporary society doing all it can to keep us talking and running. The non-program Quakers and Zensters have the silence down, but that's all. I read a piece of light research recently that suggested that many Millenials and post Millenials are attracted to very high-church (smells and bells) liturgies. I've checked that out with a couple of Millenials who said that they liked the transcendent atmosphere Anglo-Catholic liturgy creates . . . as long as they don't listen to the words.

It is time for a new kind of community and a new kind of "worship." New Age groups and attempted returns to ancient, primitive, mostly pantheistic or ancestor-worshipping cults are, to me, tiresome. And yet I yearn and I suspect I'm not alone.
why are these dens off pedophilia masquerading as churches still open
 
why are these dens off pedophilia masquerading as churches still open

I think "dens of pedophilia" might be a bit of an exaggeration, but your anger at the hypocrisy and evil that the Church has protected is completely understandable.

I implore you to also understand that the fact that the Church has been such a beneficial part of many lives is part of what makes its betrayal of the trust it has earned so much more contemptible.

Churches continue to bring people together in their shared goal to better themselves and give back to their community, despite the fact that this goodwill is often taken advantage of. They are not so different from temples, mosques, synagogues, etc. in that sense.
 
The Universalist Churches seem, to me, the ones doing the most to bring all humans into the fold of God irrespective of color, creed, gender, sexual identity et al. I don't know how well accepted they are by modern Christians though since I haven't really studied them.

For me, when I started believing in a Divine Being, I settled on tangents at first, then fully found my place in mysticism not solely because of words I read but knowledge I found within, and now even that is faltering. Even my faith in mankind is breaking apart after finding some agreement with Schopenhauer and Ligotti.

Still though, for me, the nature of God can be expressed simply as Love. Not the circular term "attraction" used by most English dictionaries but rather as "the being with what is being" which I don't recall where it came from. Being with, rather than fleeing from, or attacking, what is being seems to be the ultimate expression of God that speaks to me. We, in mortal form, cannot always be the unconditional love of God because of our baser animal instincts but we can try our best because we believe in it...and by being Love, we are following God. And I still don't believe God is separate from us.
 
Britannica tried to explain a bit about New Thought, but it is hard to make clear:

https://www.britannica.com/event/New-Thought
Yes the mind healing movement.

The power of our mind...of thought, of changing perspective, of looking with new eyes, let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus... all of that is incredibly valuable in my opinion.

What isn't incredibly valuable is the mind healing movement that indicates we can all heal our selves or others through prayer...or the power of the mind.

I don't expect miracles, I don't expect any super natural happening of some G!d or angelic intervention.

But what I do expect is a natural state whereby eliminating worry or negative thoughts or negative foods or words will have some benefit to allow our bodies to begin to heal ourselves.

The problem with "New Thought" is it ain't new! It is ancient thought we refuse to listen to, turn the other cheek, better to give than receive... let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus...not put, just allow what is shine thru.

Reminders are good...
 
What isn't incredibly valuable is the mind healing movement that indicates we can all heal our selves or others through prayer...or the power of the mind ... I don't expect miracles, I don't expect any super natural happening of some G!d or angelic intervention.
That's quite a long way from the mind of Christ, though.

But what I do expect is a natural state whereby eliminating worry or negative thoughts or negative foods or words will have some benefit to allow our bodies to begin to heal ourselves.
No issue with that.

But 'New Thought' in is spiritual dimension went on some way from that ... I'd go further and say the 'prosperity gospel' that was so much part of new thought is quite contrary to the 'mind of Christ' and reflects more on American idealism than any ancient thought.
 
I take a lot from the Catholic Mass, but I have found the most joyful times of worship, are when I worship together with people of people from many denominations. Churches Together in our town meet regularly for prayer together. We pray for each other, we pray for the needs of our town, and we do things together. We have opened up 6 houses for the homeless, opened food banks, debt help, good neighbour schemes, recovery courses, socials for all kinds of groups, and more. Tonight I shall be out with the Street Pastors, possibly until 3 - 4 am, depending on how peaceful the town is after the pubs and clubs close.

I would like to see a similar interfaith cooperation and prayer.
 
@EricPH in the before times (prelandemic) my church had our annual interfaith prayer service. In the weeks leading upto it we would have reps from various religions come to speak of the tenets of their religion...a 2 hour meeting every Wednesday night... Bahai, Hindu, Buddhist, Sikhism, Judaism, Islam, Jain, Wicca, Native American, all represented. An hour or so talk followed by Q&A discussion and then fellowship each week till the day. On the day it was 5 min intro and prayer from each...most prayers were regarding peace (undirected by us)

It was always informative moving and worthy. The various religious leaders were always happy to attend and appreciative of how well attended the talks and final night was.
 
@EricPH in the before times (prelandemic) my church had our annual interfaith prayer service. In the weeks leading upto it we would have reps from various religions come to speak of the tenets of their religion...a 2 hour meeting every Wednesday night... Bahai, Hindu, Buddhist, Sikhism, Judaism, Islam, Jain, Wicca, Native American, all represented. An hour or so talk followed by Q&A discussion and then fellowship each week till the day. On the day it was 5 min intro and prayer from each...most prayers were regarding peace (undirected by us)

It was always informative moving and worthy. The various religious leaders were always happy to attend and appreciative of how well attended the talks and final night was.
The initial claim was that neither Protestant nor Catholic or whatever church has changed since the mid 19th century. I don't think that this is true for within the church, but most contributors here know that better than I.

But at least here in Switzerland, openness of the churches towards others has turned almost from black to white. Before 1848, we had a civil war between Catholic and Protestant counties. They found a good peace agreement in 1848. Since then, people can move from one country to another without changing the sect. However, Jews didn't get the full citizen rights before 1871. But Jews were still considered as opponents to Christianity. During the Hitler regime, the churches were still divided between those who opted for helping the Jews who fled from Germany to Switzerland was a must for a Christian and those who would only help those who converted to Christianity.

Nowadays, both large Christian churches are in friendly dialogue with Jews and Muslim; they are on our side if it is needed to defend the rights and integrity of Jews and Muslim help refugees from any religion, and it were the Christian priests/reverends who organised that Imams should be employed for hospital and military pastoral care. I am always warmly welcome in any event organised by a church, Catholic or Reformed. Just in the subject of interreligious dialogue and collaboration, there has been a great improvement from the side of the Christian churches. I think this is great, and I sometimes feel ashamed that Muslim in Muslim majority countries don't always act equally. Islam was more tolerant than Christians in the 19th century and has rather become less tolerant in the past 50 years
 
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