The Urantia Book

RJM

God Feeds the Ravens
Admin
Messages
9,283
Reaction score
2,194
Points
108
i encountered oahspe before, but haven't read it all; according to this excellent analysis of it, it's from evil sources.
enjoy:
https://web.archive.org/web/20041021050808/http://www.world-destiny.org/spirit/12oahspeF.pdf
I read the above linked critique of Oahspe. I must say it comes across to me as a hatchet job. It doesn't address the body of Oahspe at all.

In fact am already getting the sense that the Urantia people are quick to stamp on anything that doesn't jibe -- as well as arguing a lot amongst themselves?
 
Last edited:

RJM

God Feeds the Ravens
Admin
Messages
9,283
Reaction score
2,194
Points
108
I'm trying to understand why these elevated angelic spirits have to explain that the science outlined in the Urantia papers will need to be updated as science progresses?

I have to prefer Oahspe as more convincing ...
 

RJM

God Feeds the Ravens
Admin
Messages
9,283
Reaction score
2,194
Points
108
Interestingly both Oahspe and the Urantia papers seem to propose an impermanent God of this world -- that Gods move on to higher realms, ever closer to the infinite, and that there have been several different highly elevated beings -- stewards for a time -- of this world?

Gods of worlds and higher gods of arcs of space of many worlds -- ever closer but never reaching the infinity of Godhead... poor human words ...
 
Last edited:

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
Messages
703
Reaction score
537
Points
88
Location
United States

3:5.6 (51.5) 1. Is courage—strength of character—desirable? Then must man be reared in an environment which necessitates grappling with hardships and reacting to disappointments.

3:5.7 (51.6) 2. Is altruism—service of one’s fellows—desirable? Then must life experience provide for encountering situations of social inequality.

3:5.8 (51.7) 3. Is hope—the grandeur of trust—desirable? Then human existence must constantly be confronted with insecurities and recurrent uncertainties.

3:5.9 (51.8) 4. Is faith—the supreme assertion of human thought—desirable? Then must the mind of man find itself in that troublesome predicament where it ever knows less than it can believe.

3:5.10 (51.9) 5. Is the love of truth and the willingness to go wherever it leads, desirable? Then must man grow up in a world where error is present and falsehood always possible.

3:5.11 (51.10) 6. Is idealism—the approaching concept of the divine—desirable? Then must man struggle in an environment of relative goodness and beauty, surroundings stimulative of the irrepressible reach for better things.

3:5.12 (51.11) 7. Is loyalty—devotion to highest duty—desirable? Then must man carry on amid the possibilities of betrayal and desertion. The valor of devotion to duty consists in the implied danger of default.

3:5.13 (51.12) 8. Is unselfishness—the spirit of self-forgetfulness—desirable? Then must mortal man live face to face with the incessant clamoring of an inescapable self for recognition and honor. Man could not dynamically choose the divine life if there were no self-life to forsake. Man could never lay saving hold on righteousness if there were no potential evil to exalt and differentiate the good by contrast.

3:5.14 (51.13) 9. Is pleasure—the satisfaction of happiness—desirable? Then must man live in a world where the alternative of pain and the likelihood of suffering are ever-present experiential possibilities.

3:5.15 (52.1) Throughout the universe, every unit is regarded as a part of the whole. Survival of the part is dependent on co-operation with the plan and purpose of the whole, the wholehearted desire and perfect willingness to do the Father’s divine will. The only evolutionary world without error (the possibility of unwise judgment) would be a world without free intelligence. In the Havona universe there are a billion perfect worlds with their perfect inhabitants, but evolving man must be fallible if he is to be free. Free and inexperienced intelligence cannot possibly at first be uniformly wise. The possibility of mistaken judgment (evil) becomes sin only when the human will consciously endorses and knowingly embraces a deliberate immoral judgment.

I do think courage and altruism are desirable, but I don't think any of the rest of these virtues are.

Hope, to me, is an attachment to a possible (and perhaps even unlikely) future, which merely creates future suffering and rejects acceptance of the present.

Faith is blind and it leads us astray.

Truth is a tool, not a virtue in and of itself, and can be bent for evil purposes. Also, lies can be good, although I try to only use them as a last resort in grave matters.

Idealism is, in my opinion, naive and misguided, as well as unnecessary.

Loyalty is the source of much of the misfortune in the world, especially in armed conflicts.

I do not think unselfishness is desirable. I think everyone has a responsibility to their own health, even if it's just so that they can continue helping other people. I think equity is better, where everyone (including yourself) is valued equally, or maybe a sort of meritocratic ideal where people can be organized by merit if they absolutely need to be. However, I don't think it's easy to calculate whether a single individual is indirectly responsible for more good than another; that might require something resembling omniscience. For that reason, it's better to treat all people equally.

Pleasure is evil. It's insidious and behind some of the most despicable actions. Doing the right thing sucks. It shouldn't be pleasurable. If you feel good, then you aren't doing enough to help other people, in my opinion. It's miserable servitude to an ungrateful and hostile word that, at best, takes advantage of you and then takes credit for your accomplishments because you aren't in it for the recognition.
 

LuisMarco

Well-Known Member
Messages
98
Reaction score
19
Points
8
Location
Mexico City
I do think courage and altruism are desirable, but I don't think any of the rest of these virtues are.

Hope, to me, is an attachment to a possible (and perhaps even unlikely) future, which merely creates future suffering and rejects acceptance of the present.

Faith is blind and it leads us astray.

Truth is a tool, not a virtue in and of itself, and can be bent for evil purposes. Also, lies can be good, although I try to only use them as a last resort in grave matters.

Idealism is, in my opinion, naive and misguided, as well as unnecessary.

Loyalty is the source of much of the misfortune in the world, especially in armed conflicts.

I do not think unselfishness is desirable. I think everyone has a responsibility to their own health, even if it's just so that they can continue helping other people. I think equity is better, where everyone (including yourself) is valued equally, or maybe a sort of meritocratic ideal where people can be organized by merit if they absolutely need to be. However, I don't think it's easy to calculate whether a single individual is indirectly responsible for more good than another; that might require something resembling omniscience. For that reason, it's better to treat all people equally.

Pleasure is evil. It's insidious and behind some of the most despicable actions. Doing the right thing sucks. It shouldn't be pleasurable. If you feel good, then you aren't doing enough to help other people, in my opinion. It's miserable servitude to an ungrateful and hostile word that, at best, takes advantage of you and then takes credit for your accomplishments because you aren't in it for the recognition.
The virtues you say are not desirable, is your own problem; of course not all will agree with you, much less me; but who cares, no¿; at least i do care...
URANTIA:
146:3.2 The apostles were a bit disconcerted by the open manner of Jesus' assent to many of the Greek's propositions, but Jesus afterward privately said to them: "My children, marvel not that I was tolerant of the Greek's philosophy. True and genuine inward certainty does not in the least fear outward analysis, nor does truth resent honest criticism. You should never forget that intolerance is the mask covering up the entertainment of secret doubts as to the trueness of one's belief. No man is at any time disturbed by his neighbor's attitude when he has perfect confidence in the truth of that which he wholeheartedly believes. Courage is the confidence of thoroughgoing honesty about those things which one professes to believe. Sincere men are unafraid of the critical examination of their true convictions and noble ideals."
 

LuisMarco

Well-Known Member
Messages
98
Reaction score
19
Points
8
Location
Mexico City
In fact am already getting the sense that the Urantia people are quick to stamp on anything that doesn't jibe -- as well as arguing a lot amongst themselves?
no, the problem rather is that URANTIA is so huge, that no one will have the same interpreations of it, but URANTIA is clear in general, and complex at same time: The Bible has an average of 700,000+ words, and URANTIA a little over a million words... URANTIA: '195:6.11 To say that mind "emerged" from matter explains nothing. If the universe were merely a mechanism and mind were unapart from matter, we would never have two differing interpretations of any observed phenomenon. The concepts of truth, beauty, and goodness are not inherent in either physics or chemistry. A machine cannot know, much less know truth, hunger for righteousness, and cherish goodness.'
 

LuisMarco

Well-Known Member
Messages
98
Reaction score
19
Points
8
Location
Mexico City
Gods of worlds and higher gods of arcs of space of many worlds -- ever closer but never reaching the infinity of Godhead... poor human words ...
False: URANTIA says we will be with THE HEAVENLY FATHER, on Paradise; look where he lives, here, in the first pages of URANTIA:
(emphases in the original.)
0:0.5 Your world, Urantia, is one of many similar inhabited planets which comprise the local universe of Nebadon. This universe, together with similar creations, makes up the superuniverse of Orvonton, from whose capital, Uversa, our commission hails. Orvonton is one of the seven evolutionary superuniverses of time and space which circle the never-beginning, never-ending creation of divine perfection — the central universe of Havona. At the heart of this eternal and central universe is the stationary Isle of Paradise, the geographic center of infinity and the dwelling place of the eternal God.
 

LuisMarco

Well-Known Member
Messages
98
Reaction score
19
Points
8
Location
Mexico City
@LuisMarco please use your own voice when posting, and keep the quoted scripture to a minimum.

Another request: you obviously found something important to you in urantia, and want others to find this, too. BUT... this is an interfaith discussion forum, where we explore and answer, but do not try to convert. Please keep that in mind.
i'm not here to convert anybody, nor to proselyte; your beliefs are your problem.
 

LuisMarco

Well-Known Member
Messages
98
Reaction score
19
Points
8
Location
Mexico City
But it appears the Urantia book is presenting other religions with essentially a sort of reworking of the Christian philosophy? It is at root an interpretation of Jesus -- it is centred around Jesus?
i don't think it is necessarily centered around JESUS, but yes a little more than a third of URANTIA is about his life and life-giving teachings, and the first 3 parts of it mention JESUS...
 

LuisMarco

Well-Known Member
Messages
98
Reaction score
19
Points
8
Location
Mexico City
What is the difference between the 3?
Lucifer was the ruler of our local system of inhabited worlds (not to confuse with our solar system); Satan was his second on command; the Devil is Caligastia who rebelled agains GOD's cosmic government together with the first two iniquitous personalities and other 30+ worlds with its sinful rulers in our local system of 1000 inhabited worlds...
 

LuisMarco

Well-Known Member
Messages
98
Reaction score
19
Points
8
Location
Mexico City
What is the Urantia Book's explanation for the existence of evil? If it occurs on multiple levels, as you imply, it seems to be a pervasive issue?
URANTIA:
54:0.1 EVOLUTIONARY man finds it difficult fully to comprehend the significance and to grasp the meanings of evil, error, sin, and iniquity. Man is slow to perceive that contrastive perfection and imperfection produce potential evil; that conflicting truth and falsehood create confusing error; that the divine endowment of freewill choice eventuates in the divergent realms of sin and righteousness; that the persistent pursuit of divinity leads to the kingdom of God as contrasted with its continuous rejection, which leads to the domains of iniquity.
no, evil is not pervasive; there are rare iniquitous rebellions in all of Creation:
140:5.11 3. "Happy are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth." Genuine meekness has no relation to fear. It is rather an attitude of man co-operating with God — "Your will be done." It embraces patience and forbearance and is motivated by an unshakable faith in a lawful and friendly universe. It masters all temptations to rebel against the divine leading. Jesus was the ideal meek man of Urantia, and he inherited a vast universe.
 

LuisMarco

Well-Known Member
Messages
98
Reaction score
19
Points
8
Location
Mexico City
@LuisMarco
The Urantia Book seems to be picked up by disaffected Christians? It does not seem to talk to people of non-Christian religions?
94:12.7 All Urantia is waiting for the proclamation of the ennobling message of Michael, unencumbered by the accumulated doctrines and dogmas of nineteen centuries of contact with the religions of evolutionary origin. The hour is striking for presenting to Buddhism, to Christianity, to Hinduism, even to the peoples of all faiths, not the gospel about Jesus, but the living, spiritual reality of the gospel of Jesus.
 

RJM

God Feeds the Ravens
Admin
Messages
9,283
Reaction score
2,194
Points
108
Gods of worlds and higher gods of arcs of space of many worlds -- ever closer but never reaching the infinity of Godhead
False: URANTIA says we will be with THE HEAVENLY FATHER, on Paradise; look where he lives, here, in the first pages of URANTIA:
(emphases in the original.)
Ok.
@LuisMarco
What about this?
Interestingly both Oahspe and the Urantia papers seem to propose an impermanent God of this world -- that Gods move on to higher realms, ever closer to the infinite, and that there have been several different highly elevated beings -- stewards for a time -- of this world?
 

LuisMarco

Well-Known Member
Messages
98
Reaction score
19
Points
8
Location
Mexico City
@RJM:
DEITY is not impermanent, although there is the evolutionary Deity: the Supreme Being, as per URANTIA.
And yes there are divine and lesser higher beings who are stewards of universes, planets, and more...
As to our relation to infinity, even Infinity (GOD, etc), we are told in URANTIA, among other stuff:
106:9.2 When finite creatures attempt to conceive of infinite unification on the finality levels of consummated eternity, they are face to face with intellect limitations inherent in their finite existences. Time, space, and experience constitute barriers to creature concept; and yet, without time, apart from space, and except for experience, no creature could achieve even a limited comprehension of universe reality. Without time sensitivity, no evolutionary creature could possibly perceive the relations of sequence. Without space perception, no creature could fathom the relations of simultaneity. Without experience, no evolutionary creature could even exist; only the Seven Absolutes of Infinity really transcend experience, and even these may be experiential in certain phases.
URANTIA: the best divine revelation ever; at least in a 99.9% of certainty.
 
Last edited:

RJM

God Feeds the Ravens
Admin
Messages
9,283
Reaction score
2,194
Points
108
yes there are divine and lesser higher beings who are stewards of universes, planets, and more...
Does this include the eventual promotion and replacement of the God of our own world, over course of time? Or is the being we call 'God' unchanged since the inception of this world/planet where we exist?
 

LuisMarco

Well-Known Member
Messages
98
Reaction score
19
Points
8
Location
Mexico City
Does this include the eventual promotion and replacement of the God of our own world, over course of time? Or is the being we call 'God' unchanged since the inception of this world/planet where we exist?
read URANTIA; or perhaps it is not for you; in which case who cares, right¿; only you and that's it, etc!.
 

RJM

God Feeds the Ravens
Admin
Messages
9,283
Reaction score
2,194
Points
108
read URANTIA; or perhaps it is not for you; in which case who cares, right¿; only you and that's it, etc!.
Read Oahspe. Or perhaps it is not for you, etc. The fact is Urantia seems to be a long book, life is limited, and you Urantia people have failed to convince me of the need to dedicate my time ...
 

LuisMarco

Well-Known Member
Messages
98
Reaction score
19
Points
8
Location
Mexico City
Read Oahspe. Or perhaps it is not for you, etc. The fact is Urantia seems to be a long book, life is limited, and you Urantia people have failed to convince me of the need to dedicate my time ...
i don't care much about oashpe; i don't care you don't care about URANTIA, and again i know you don't care either, but i didn't want to convince you, i'm just here for exposing the Truth of the best revelation of them all.
 

RJM

God Feeds the Ravens
Admin
Messages
9,283
Reaction score
2,194
Points
108
i don't care much about oashpe; i don't care you don't care about URANTIA, and again i know you don't care either, but i didn't want to convince you, i'm just here for exposing the Truth of the best revelation of them all.
You haven't read Oahspe.
 
Last edited:
Top