Modalism + Partialism = Trinitarianism?

[Thomas]

Before all determination and all the things you said above there was something though, space without time, void of all things.

Nope. Before there was space.

Here is how the story above is relative. You see nothing entered into gods mind ...

Again no. This is not God. The Divine Mind is all there is, if you like. There is 'nothing' to enter into it that is not already there. You are suggesting God, and something else – even if that something is 'nothing – you've implied two things, two states, and already then, you're in relativity.

I look at this thought always because the only thing here before all determination was space.

I'd say space is a determination.

No trinity only space before anything else.

As I see it, there was God before space.

 

[Longfellow]

Now I'm thinking that "the Trinity" is whatever anyone wants it to be.

(later) Whatever anyone wants it to be, to be able to say that they believe in it, or to argue against it.

 

[Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi]

please tell me about "biblical god" as mentioned in this verse:
Exodus 7:1

1. King James Bible
And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
My friends, if you could not find the above verse in your bible similar then please visit these websites which have more than 50 translated bibles even each verse.

Exodus 7:1 The LORD answered Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet.

Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 7:1 - King James Version

And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[powessy]

Nope. Before there was space.

Again no. This is not God. The Divine Mind is all there is, if you like. There is 'nothing' to enter into it that is not already there. You are suggesting God, and something else – even if that something is 'nothing – you've implied two things, two states, and already then, you're in relativity.

I'd say space is a determination.

As I see it, there was God before space.

Strictly speaking of god here at this point before determination and way before the trinity.

You are right before space but this is where I get held up.

What I see is god is within a mind a yourself when nothing came to figure him out this means there was something outside this mind. Nothing could not figure god out because they were already inside of him, law of minds.

The other problem is absolutely nothing here, figure absolutely nothing out was not a thought or mind yet. Absolutely nothing here did not become something until many times later. This suggests that they were something there first before anything became something here.

I am stuck at this point until I find those minds from those times to figure this out.

Powessy

 

[powessy]

Now I'm thinking that "the Trinity" is whatever anyone wants it to be.

(later) Whatever anyone wants it to be, to be able to say that they believe in it, or to argue against it.

Not sure what you are saying here. We are basically trying to understand this image and this understanding of the trinity.



I hear voices and they teach me that this understanding is wrong god is god only and nothing else is who he is.

Powessy

 

[Longfellow]

Not sure what you are saying here. We are basically trying to understand this image and this understanding of the trinity.

View attachment 3100

I hear voices and they teach me that this understanding is wrong god is god only and nothing else is who he is.

Powessy

You might be reading it wrong, because of the direction of "is" in two of the connectors. For example, it should be read as "The Son is God," not "God is the Son." The "is" in the Trinity doctrine doesn't go both ways like it does in other contexts.

I see a way of understanding that diagram, that I can honestly and confidently agree with. Maybe if you understood it that way, your voices would not tell you that it's wrong. Let me know if you're willing to consider that possibility.

 

[powessy]

You might be reading it wrong, because of the direction of "is" in two of the connectors. For example, it should be read as "The Son is God," not "God is the Son." The "is" in the Trinity doctrine doesn't go both ways like it does in other contexts.

I see a way of understanding that diagram, that I can agree with. Maybe if you understood it my way, your voices would not tell you that it's wrong. Let me know if you're willing to consider that possibility.

I do not think there is a wrong way to read it no matter how you replace the words, simply god is himself only he is nothing more.

By all means that is the reason for this tread, it is to show your understanding of the trinity. Some of my voices are minds that have been around since before time and others are from the times before this world ever became something here. Some of these minds are those of the son and the father and I can assure you neither were god.

Powessy

 

[RJM]

And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

So ...?
Pharaoh thought he was a god.
Yaweh demonstrates His power through Moses to take pharaoh down.

 

[Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi]

So, Moses was a "biblical god" but not a mighty God. How can we differentiate between these gods' personalities?

 

[RJM]

So, Moses was a "biblical god" but not a mighty God. How can we differentiate between these gods' personalities?

Clearly in this case by the context = Pharaoh thinks he's God, until along comes Moses. Now I know, as a Muslim you do not accept that Moses is God ... so the argument is full circle back to 'Jesus is not God' ... but Christians think Jesus is God ... therefore Muslims need to correct Christians about how to understand their own religion, etc ... round and around it goes

Pages and pages have been dedicated to this. The answer has not changed. Why do you not contemplate the Christian answer. Perhaps even learn something from it?

(edited)

 

[Thomas]

Strictly speaking of god here at this point before determination and way before the trinity.

Although, of course, 'before' or 'after' is inapplicable to God.

You are right before space but this is where I get held up.

Ah ... I see ...

What I see is god is within a mind a yourself ...

I think this is a part of the confusion. God is prior to mind. 'Mind' is not a thing, it's an activity. God is not a thing as other things are, but in the traditional understandings, there is God in His essence, which is God in Himself, and God in His energies or activities, which is the expression of His will, which we see in 'the Book of Nature'.

If 'god is within a mind' then logically that mind is greater than god ... in which case the 'god' you speak of is not 'God' as I understand it.

when nothing came to figure him out this means there was something outside this mind.

We now have three things: 'god', the 'mind' that contains it, and the 'nothing' (which is nevertheless a something – there is activity there, in nothing trying to 'figure him out') – so this nothing must also have a mind, and a lesser mind than either god or the mind that contains god, because the nothing (whatever it is) is trying to figure it out ...

Nothing could not figure god out because they were already inside of him, law of minds.

So now we have a hierarchy – there is a mind, there is god within that mind, and then there is nothing within god, and that nothing is subject to the 'law of minds'.

This suggests that they were something there first before anything became something here.

I suggest that is a close approximation of the God I am talking about. That which is, before anything was.

I am stuck at this point until I find those minds from those times to figure this out.

I would suggest the 'stuckness' is because a mind 'knows', it casts its light, as it were, and 'sees' according to what is reflected. A mind can only figure out itself and what lies below it ...if it reflects nothing, then the mind cannot know it ... I think here is where your minds are stuck, and where 'nothing' becomes confused and contradictory.

As soon as 'nothing' does something – like trying to figure something out – then it ceases to be nothing.

I hope this helps ...

 

[Thomas]

please tell me about "biblical god" as mentioned in this verse:
Exodus 7:1

Have you read the commentaries?

The term has many definitions, according to context and usage. Here's the problem with reading literally, without understanding.

Strong's Biblical Concordance
b. godlike one Exodus 4:16 (see below), Exodus 7:1 (in relation to Pharaoh) ...

For example, in Exodus 4:16, God directs Moses to appoint Aaron, his brother, as his spokesperson:
"And he (Aaron) shall be thy (Moses) spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God."
So here the meaning is, Aaron will be like the mouth of Moses, and Moses will be as God to Aaron, because Aaron's authority to speak comes from Moses, (and from God).

If you read Exodus 6, then the opening of Exodus 7 makes sense.

 

[Thomas]

I am stuck at this point until I find those minds from those times to figure this out.

Here's something regarding the 'nothingness of God from the writings of Eriugena:

We say God does not know who or what he is, because being the source of everything that is and that can be, in God they exist undivided, without difference or distinction or discrimination. This mode of Divine Ignorance transcends knowing, because knowing implies determination, definition, and so on. God is non-determined, non-defined. knows Himself as Himself; not in part, nor in constituents nor determinations ... this Divine ignorance, then, is the highest and truest wisdom that transcends all knowledge.

 

[powessy]

Although, of course, 'before' or 'after' is inapplicable to God.


Ah ... I see ...

I think this is a part of the confusion. God is prior to mind. 'Mind' is not a thing, it's an activity. God is not a thing as other things are, but in the traditional understandings, there is God in His essence, which is God in Himself, and God in His energies or activities, which is the expression of His will, which we see in 'the Book of Nature'.

If 'god is within a mind' then logically that mind is greater than god ... in which case the 'god' you speak of is not 'God' as I understand it.

We now have three things: 'god', the 'mind' that contains it, and the 'nothing' (which is nevertheless a something – there is activity there, in nothing trying to 'figure him out') – so this nothing must also have a mind, and a lesser mind than either god or the mind that contains god, because the nothing (whatever it is) is trying to figure it out ...

So now we have a hierarchy – there is a mind, there is god within that mind, and then there is nothing within god, and that nothing is subject to the 'law of minds'.

I suggest that is a close approximation of the God I am talking about. That which is, before anything was.

I would suggest the 'stuckness' is because a mind 'knows', it casts its light, as it were, and 'sees' according to what is reflected. A mind can only figure out itself and what lies below it ...if it reflects nothing, then the mind cannot know it ... I think here is where your minds are stuck, and where 'nothing' becomes confused and contradictory.

As soon as 'nothing' does something – like trying to figure something out – then it ceases to be nothing.

I hope this helps ...

You can become something inside anything inside yourself to figure it out. If you are inside something bigger then your mind it can figure you out but you cannot figure it out, this is the law of minds.

The more time you become, the larger your mind becomes the more things that can fit inside it for you to figure out.

So what I was saying is the mind god was in when nothing tried to figure him out was not his mind. The other point here is that this mind he was in when nothing tried to figure him out became everything inside it except gods mind. This understanding is yourself inside yourself from gods perspective.

Remember nothing is not nothing in the traditional sense of the word this is minds who’s thoughts are so powerful every thing inside them becomes THEM to become nothing here.

Yes you did help me realize something about nothing a thought that needs to be relooked at again and again.

Thank you for your time.

Powessy

 

[powessy]

Here's something regarding the 'nothingness of God from the writings of Eriugena:

We say God does not know who or what he is, because being the source of everything that is and that can be, in God they exist undivided, without difference or distinction or discrimination. This mode of Divine Ignorance transcends knowing, because knowing implies determination, definition, and so on. God is non-determined, non-defined. knows Himself as Himself; not in part, nor in constituents nor determinations ... this Divine ignorance, then, is the highest and truest wisdom that transcends all knowledge.

This is correct he knows himself only as himself only. No thing can become him and yet we are all inside him.

If you are only 10 things to become yourself, then only something with those ten things plus any number of other things can figure you out. God is only one thing and there are no things like him inside himself.

I have asked why we know nothing about him and it is said that he never had to become anything, or divine ignorance.

Eriugena, describes god well here.

Powessy

 

[Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi]

Here God also says gods to men in the Bible:
Psalm 82:6
New International Version
“I said, ‘You are “gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.’
Here god is treated as a "biblical god" not Almighty God".

 

[RJM]

Here God also says gods to men in the Bible:
Psalm 82:6
New International Version
“I said, ‘You are “gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.’
Here god is treated as a "biblical god" not Almighty God".

It is good you are starting to read the Bible. These questions will resolve themselves as you continue, imo

 

[Thomas]

You can become something inside anything inside yourself to figure it out. If you are inside something bigger then your mind it can figure you out but you cannot figure it out, this is the law of minds.

I agree with this. I would say it differently, but generally we're walking along together.

So what I was saying is the mind god was in when nothing tried to figure him out was not his mind. The other point here is that this mind he was in when nothing tried to figure him out became everything inside it except gods mind. This understanding is yourself inside yourself from gods perspective.

I'm beginning to think I see where you're coming from ...

Remember nothing is not nothing in the traditional sense of the word this is minds who’s thoughts are so powerful every thing inside them becomes THEM to become nothing here.

I'm still uncertain what you mean by nothing.

For me, the Divine 'nothing' is everything, but everything without distinction. So everything before it becomes the multitude of things.

Yes you did help me realize something about nothing a thought that needs to be relooked at again and again.

I am of the view that an illumined mind will never give the same answer twice. It's good to keep asking the same questions.

Thank you for your time.

and thanks for your patience and perseverance.

 

[powessy]

I agree with this. I would say it differently, but generally we're walking along together.

I'm beginning to think I see where you're coming from ...

I'm still uncertain what you mean by nothing.

For me, the Divine 'nothing' is everything, but everything without distinction. So everything before it becomes the multitude of things.

I am of the view that an illumined mind will never give the same answer twice. It's good to keep asking the same questions.

and thanks for your patience and perseverance.

This kind of nothing. Let’s see, let’s say you have 10 thousand people standing in a field. Nothing walks onto the field and starts to kill everyone on the field. After nothing kills you it Also eats you and takes your soul as it’s own, there is nothing left of you. When nothing is done with the people and the field nothing just stops and goes inside itself and the lights all shut off. You now look at where the field once was for nothing consumed the field also. What remains nothing remains. Nothing will remain like this until it finds more time that it can teach nothing to.

I came here to figure out how this kind of nothing found time again, how it became something again and figured itself out.

Steven kings the langoliers the machines that are eating up time reminds me of this kind of nothing.

Powessy

 

[Thomas]

Nothing walks onto the field ...

Here I get lost again. Something is doing the killing. There is an active agent at work here ... that's not 'nothing'.

There are two kinds of nothing. One at the top, one at the bottom.

The one at the bottom is what most conceive as nothing – there is an absence of everything – metaphysically, philosophically and scientifically, there is no such thing. Even the vast empty distances between the stars, there is the quantum field, etc., etc. ... there's just no activity, no intelligible thing, and so on.

At the top there is absolutely everything, altogether, all at once, in its pure essential state, all existing as one, without distinction.

I can't fit your nothing into either of these categories, and I can't see where this nothing fits in the category of minds you talk about?

If you want to say 'it's a work in progress, I haven't figured it out yet', that's OK. I'm just letting you know where I'm at.