Reading with New Eyes, Hearing with New Ears

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

While I have massive reservations about the political and social system outlined in the Baha'i writings, and you pose a valid question, I also think it's a bit one-dimensional to reduce any religion or world-view to the politics. Not that I haven't done that myself, many times, even on this forum

I guess the challenge of a Baha'i world view with its emphasis on Unity would be to reconcile the ideal of Unity with the ideal of honoring preceding revelations and their faiths, which by their very nature resist unification. So how do you approach that challenge in your personal practice, @Tone Bristow-Stagg ? And, even if you have a lovely passage of Baha'i scripture ready to answer my question, I'd actually appreciate reading your own thoughts and words even more.

If anyone really wants to know how that will work, I can only offer this heart warming 1 hour presentation of what can be achieved.

Please dismiss if you have no curiosity to watch.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

We are One human race under One God, it is our perception of Faith that is the only division.

And yours which is the only correct one? Sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult. I may step back here

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

But how do you know the Jews made a mistake in not becoming Christians? How do you know Christians made a mistake in not becoming Muslims? These are very sweeping statements. They are the beliefs of your own Baha'i faith, spoken by your own Baha'i prophet, whom you believe to be the newest prophet, and the last one for another millenium. Certainly not everyone else agrees with your beliefs.

The current state of the world is ample evidence of what results when we do not embrace the subsequent Revelations of the One God.

God made Covenants with man, God keeps the Covenants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant_(biblical)

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

And yours which is the only correct one? Sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult. I may step back here

They are all from God RJM, you are not difficult. Who am I to say what is better or worse, none of us can do that? We are not the givers of Faiths.

I do not see the Baha'i Revelations as better than any other Faith given by God, I hope you can appreciate this. I embrace them all in the SAME light of God.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

do not see the Baha'i Revelations as better than any other Faith given by God, I hope you can appreciate this. I embrace them all in the SAME light of God.

I'm sorry, but you do seem to be saying that the Baha'i faith is or should be the only faith. I'm saying all faiths open the true and humble 'seeker' to God in quietness and humility of soul.

It's the political 'one world' aspect of Baha'i that is disquieting to followers of other faiths, who are happy with their own faith and do not want to convert. (To Baha'i festivals and prayers, etc)

".. He who is called Krishna is also called Siva, and bears the name of the Primal Energy, Jesus, and Allah as well - the same Rama with a thousand names. A lake has several Ghats.

At one, the Hindus take water in pitchers and call it 'Jal' ; at another the Muslims take water in leather bags and call it 'pani'. At a third the Christians call it 'water'. Can we imagine that it is not 'Jal' , but only 'pani' or 'water'? How ridiculous! The substance is One under different names, and everyone is seeking the same substance; only climate, temperament, and name create differences. Let each man follow his own path. If he sincerely and ardently wishes to know God, peace be unto him! He will surely realize Him
"
(Ramakrishna Paramahansa)

 

[RJM]

Thank you for an interesting discussion. I have saved the video you posted above to watch later @Tone Bristow-Stagg

 

[Thomas]

Thank you Thomas, but I see that there is no religious scripture given by God, that refutes a previous scripture.

Indeed not.

There are scriptures that people have misinterpreted, and thus hold to their interpretations and may see a refutation.

Ah, but here's the rub. When citing texts, it's always necessary to consider context:

Matthew 13:10-11, 16-17 –
"10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given ... 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. 17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them."

The point here is that the 'mysteries of the kingdom' was made known to the Twelve, not to the broader audience. So a parable is given with layers of meaning, and can be read in diverse ways, but Jesus instructs the Twelve into the 'mysteries of heaven' which, by their very nature, transcend human knowing. The Word was planted in them, and came to fruition at Pentecost, as He had told them:

John 14:16-17, 25-26:
16 "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another paraclete to help you and be with you forever — 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you... 25 "All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the paraclete, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."

I have shortened John's account for the sake of brevity, and focus on the paraclete, the Holy Spirit. Taken in its full form, the structure of the Trinity is implicit in the text, 'for those with eyes to see and ears to hear'.

As an aside, my own (non doctrinal) take on the people as having 'calloused hearts', and closed ears and eyes, is a result of the Fall, it is the wounded human state, rather than the intransigence of any particular audience.

It was from Scripture such as this that the Fathers arrived at the aphorism: "The Spirit reveals the Son, the Son reveals the Father."

 

[Thomas]

The substance is One under different names, and everyone is seeking the same substance; only climate, temperament, and name create differences. Let each man follow his own path. If he sincerely and ardently wishes to know God, peace be unto him! He will surely realize Him"
(Ramakrishna Paramahansa)

Ah, @RJM, there's a nugget of gold!

I would rather everyone follow their own path, and if the heart's in the right place, they'll happily rub shoulders with others on the way, because they're on the way ... regardless of the path they follow. Lord knows, with things the way they are in the world, we should treat the devout Jew, the Brahmin, the Muslim, the Buddhist, the theosopher, the wiccan, the seeker ... like a welcome meeting on a lonely, unlit road ...

And this to me is the crux of it ... we can have all the parliaments we like, but until the heart is in the right place, we have nothing ... and when we have the heart in the right place, there will be no need for parliaments.

 

[Thomas]

On the matter of 'reading with new eyes' ...

Someone, a famous author, the name escapes me, said try reading 1 Corinthians 13 aloud, as if you were absolutely furious.

Context: Paul founded his first congregation at Corinth about 50AD. He then travelled on to Ephesus, about 180 miles by sea. Then to Caesarea and Antioch. Paul returned to Ephesus on his third missionary journey and spent about three years there. It was while in Ephesus that he received disconcerting news that the community in Corinth was riven with jealousies, rivalries and potential schisms.

It is reckoned that Paul dictated his letters (I think this was common practice?). Scholars believe that Sosthenes was his 'amanuensis' (secretary) who wrote down the text at Paul's direction. (Origin used to dictate multiple letters to a number of secretaries, as many as six, rotating between each so they had time to write down what he'd said while dictating on a different subject to each of the other five!)

We know Paul could be 'difficult' and feisty. By Ch13 he's really got into his stride, and now the blood's up ... he's not happy, he's angry, yes, but he's also upset. This is not rage, it's a cri de cœur, and benefits from a bit of passion.

 

[RJM]

Ah, @RJM, there's a nugget of gold!

Ramakrishna is so wise:
https://www.ramakrishnavivekananda.info/gospel/gospel.htm
(Skip all intro: straight to vol 1 or 2 and open on any chapter)

 

[Aupmanyav]

"Reading with New Eyes, Hearing with New Ears": Does this mean reading with Bahai eyes and seeing with Bahai eyes?

I do not see the Baha'i Revelations as better than any other Faith given by God, I hope you can appreciate this. I embrace them all in the SAME light of God.

Now that is not correct. Are not the older faiths, all of them, corrupted? And your Iranian preacher has brought the latest missives from Allah (actually, he is a manifestation of Allah) - and they have not yet been corrupted (they have been guarded by the preachers son, Abdul Baha, his great grandson, Shoghi, and then by your House of Justice). So they are definitely better. And we should acknowledge the Iranian preacher and his message. Not doing that will be a sin in eyes of your Allah, and we will have to bear the consequences of it. How do you say that the message he brought is no better than the old messages brought by Moses, Jesus, Mohammad, Krishna, Zoroaster and Buddha which have been corrupted.

The current state of the world is ample evidence of what results when we do not embrace the subsequent Revelations of the One God.

You said it.

If anyone really wants to know how that will work, I can only offer this heart warming 1 hour presentation of what can be achieved.

Ah, One hour! We watch the whole of it for one whole hour!! Are you serious!!!

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I'm sorry, but you do seem to be saying that the Baha'i faith is or should be the only faith. I'm saying all faiths open the true and humble 'seeker' to God in quietness and humility of soul.

It's the political 'one world' aspect of Baha'i that is disquieting to followers of other faiths, who are happy with their own faith and do not want to convert. (To Baha'i festivals and prayers, etc)

I open with a question, Is it about 'Me' and what 'I' want, or is it about God and how God guides us?

The Message of the Torah was that of submission to God and the Laws God gives. Jesus said pick up the cross and follow me for a reason, it is all about submission to God over one's own desires, thus this was a great test for the Jew, a bounty of submission showing how God sets the laws and standards for each age.

Now we can also see why the Message of Muhammad was also needed, as the liberation of Faith to enable man to make more laws for themselves also carried with the dangers that we think we can go it alone without God, that we do not stray in faith. Islam again taught us that to have true liberty, we need to submit to God and the God given laws in every age God gives a Messsage.

That ended the age of Prophecy. In Revelation Muhammad and Ali are the Two Witnesses that will give Prophecy for 1260 days (years) clothed in sackcloth, which is metaphor for a return to a law based Faith, a return to submission unto God. The Covenant of Muhammad was broken on His deathbed and that is why Islam in the Bible was foretold to be the two dead bodies laying in the street. The Dynasties that arose from that break, are the Beast, which was 7 kingdoms with 10 rulers. This is all in the Bible.

Then we get the Message of the Bab, given by God to shake Islam to its very foundations, as it it has strayed far from the Message of Muhammad and the Quran, and to usher in the Day of God.

Then Baha'u'llah brought that 'Day of God', this is the time the Jews have waited for, this is the day promised by Jesus, the day the Son returns as the Father. The Message of Baha'u'llah is that of Christ returned as the 'Glory of God'. It contains the guidance and laws of this age, the age where the Kingdom of God, as it is in Heaven, will be reflected here on earth.

This requires submission, submission to what God offers and not what men want for themselves.

So it is all about God and not what you and I want, it is about submission.

Now we can stand back and see how just God is. The Laws for this age are a wonderful balance, I am amazed how perfect is God's Will for humanuty over what we think God's Will is.

It gives Christianity the wisdom of submission into laws that will bring about a strong family and community bond and removes the burden some Faiths have placed upon themselves practising hundreds of laws that were suited for ages long gone. It works, the video posted above shows how it penetrates the heart and mind of all peoples from all cultures in all countries of the world to bring about a united but diverse organic oneness.

One does not abandon Jesus the Christ or any Messenger in this process, because submission unto God, is submission unto all Messemgers past and future. It is being born from the flesh into the Spirit.

Much can be offered, this is more than I have said in the past. I am always happy to discuss it further, or be more silent. Only God knows our hearts.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

John 14:16-17, 25-26:
16 "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another paraclete to help you and be with you forever — 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you... 25 "All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the paraclete, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."

I have shortened John's account for the sake of brevity, and focus on the paraclete, the Holy Spirit. Taken in its full form, the structure of the Trinity is implicit in the text, 'for those with eyes to see and ears to hear

I see that the paraclete in that Prophecy is most likely Muhammad and just applicable to the Bab.

The Father in that passage, to me, is Baha'u'llah.

Now the thing that gets really eye opening, is that Jesus Christ, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah are all that Holy Spirit. So in reality it is the Holy Spirit that sends (manifests from God) itself in each age. The Bab and Baha'u'llah have both written that it was them that spoke from the Burning Bush to Moses, but that is also the same Spirit that was given of Moses and Abraham.

I only offered that, as it shows we have a lot to consider as to what it is we actually know about God? All we know God by is but via these prophets and Messengers, as no one has seen God. Here is one verse that we can meditae upon.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Notice Christ the Son, is in the Bosom of the Father who is the 'Glory of God'. Jesus writes upon us the new name, but only to those that receive it.


Revelation 2:17 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it".

Read more here.

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/A-New-Name

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Ah, One hour! We watch the whole of it for one whole hour!! Are you serious!!!

I said to disregard the video if you are not interested. End of story.

Regards Tony

 

[Cino]

Thus when I attend church and pray with Christians, we share fellowship with our One God. The pastor also came to one of our Holy Days.

That's lovely! I've been invited to Church services, too. There were certain challenges: The Creed and other prayers - do I remain silent, or do I read along? In one such service the priest sprinkled holy water on us, which felt inclusive but also transgressive...

How did you feel? Did you experience similar challenges?

Many love and cherish the sacrifice of Jesus. But what about the Bab? The same sacrifice was made, for the same reason. Yet the same mistake made by the Jews is now reflected by Christianity. I do not say that to be harsh, but only out of Love.

Hmmm. How to be sure it was not the Christians who made the mistake? Or the Muslims, the Babis, etc? If I believed in a god, I'd be a bit unsettled by his reneging eternal covenants every few centuries.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

How did you feel? Did you experience similar challenges?

Yes there are challenges as I do not partake of the bread or wine, which are symbolic of living the life as a Christain.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

. How to be sure it was not the Christians who made the mistake? Or the Muslims, the Babis, etc? If I believed in a god, I'd be a bit unsettled by his reneging eternal covenants every few centuries

We have ever an evolving consciousness. What we could learn 2000 years ago, is not relevant to our current capacity.

How could you explain world air travel to persons that did not know other countries even existed? As such prophecy is given in a progressive manner, further guidance is received.

"Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which the subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements. – Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah "

Regards Tony

 

[Cino]

Yes there are challenges as I do not partake of the bread or wine, which are symbolic of living the life as a Christain.

Regards Tony

Were you offered the wine and bread? Some Christians (I think most?) would consider this to be for those "in good standing with their church" only?

So how did it work out for you? What did it make you feel like?

 

[Cino]

We have ever an evolving consciousness. What we could learn 2000 years ago, is not relevant to our current capacity.

But does that render an eternal covenant null and void?

How could you explain world air travel to persons that did not know other countries even existed? As such prophecy is given in a progressive manner, further guidance is received.

Is there guidance in the Baha'i writings concerning nuclear waste disposal, genetic engineering, our current systems of surveillance capitalism, or artificial intelligence?

 

[Thomas]

Hi Tony –

I see that the paraclete in that Prophecy is most likely Muhammad and just applicable to the Bab.

I can understand that, but I would hope also that you can understand that when a verse is taken in isolation, then it is open to all manner of interpretation. If however, the prophetic verses are read in the broader context of the Gospel, of Jesus' promises to His disciples, then the paraclete is clearly the Holy Spirit manifest at Pentecost, 50 days after the Resurrection.

Now the thing that gets really eye opening, is that Jesus Christ, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah are all that Holy Spirit.

But that refutes what Jesus Himself says in John (emphasis mine):
"And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever." (14:16)
"But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you." (14:26)
"But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me." (15:26)
"But I tell you the truth: it is expedient to you that I go: for if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." (16:7)
The Son and the Holy Spirit are clearly distinct one from the other, not the same 'person' in different guises.

Here is one verse that we can meditate upon.
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

But here I hope you can understand that 'we' see 'your' interpretation of 'paraclete' as not according to His declaration.