Gospel Jesus as lord of a here-and-now kingdom

Cino said:
Is Paul's example the gold standard to Christians, when it comes to deciding what the spirit of a law means? Or was the a development, further discussion over the centuries?
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A development, I think. Can't say for sure.
Cino said:
I seem to remember that the Reformers, Zwingli, Calvin et al. were struggling to find the right balance, from "first principles" based solely on scripture, regarding this question.
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All part of the 'faith and works debate ... justification by faith alone, sola scriptura, etc.
Cino said:
So the food purity laws were abrogated (except where explicit worship of pagan deities was involved). The laws regarding divorce were abrogated by Jesus himself. Which other laws/commandments did Christians have discussions about, how to live or keep them?
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I rather think by the 3rd century the Christians were generally so ill-informed of Jewish Law that they assumed all of it had been abrogated. It was a problem from the get-go, and one that Paul himself struggled with, although in my book he came down on the side of a Covenant made between God and Israel is not abrogated by the appearance of Christianity ... that's buried somewhere in the dense theology of his letter to the Romans.
 
muhammad_isa said:
@RJM
Those verses are referring to hypocrites. You will see that if you read the first few verses of the chapter.
Not all Pharisees were hypocrites, and neither are all Jews today.

After all, mother Mary herself, was a Jew [ Pharisee?] .. and she was NOT a hypocrite!
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Jesus said what he said:
Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
 
muhammad_isa said:
..but God does not condemn anybody .. we wrong our own souls.
People believe all sorts of things.
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I was talking about what they believed. 'we wrong our own souls is, I think a modern interpretation?
 
RJM said:
Jesus said what he said:
Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
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..but you are not a Bible literalist.. :)
..and verses taken out of context are a very poor argument indeed.
 
16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
- Matthew 15 -

Do you see how taking verses out of context, changes their "apparent" meaning?
 
muhammad_isa said:
16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
- Matthew 15 -

Do you see how taking verses out of context, changes their "apparent" meaning?
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It's not out of context.
I linked the entire passage. There's no 'apparent' meaning. Jesus's meaning is very clear.

Matthew 15:8-20 KJV - This people draweth nigh unto me with - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

Read full chapter:
www.biblegateway.com

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 15 - King James Version

Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? For...
www.biblegateway.com www.biblegateway.com

You want the NT Jesus to be the Quran Jesus. But He is not, imo
 
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RJM said:
It's not out of context.
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Is it not all about:
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

and then Jesus rebukes them, revealing their hypocrisy..
.. explaining that it is "what comes out of the mouth" is defiling, and not the germs on their hands.
Surely, Jesus isn't teaching us not to wash our hands .. he is rebuking them for their pettyness,
while they themselves are guilty of more serious sins.
 
muhammad_isa said:
Is it not all about:
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

and then Jesus rebukes them, revealing their hypocrisy..
.. explaining that it is "what comes out of the mouth" is defiling, and not the germs on their hands.
Surely, Jesus isn't teaching us not to wash our hands .. he is rebuking them for their pettyness,
while they themselves are guilty of more serious sins.
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Jesus says:
Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

Clear as day.
It's not what you eat.
That's it.

Jews do not accept Jesus as Messiah, and that is their religion. No problem.

Muslims DO accept Jesus as Messiah. But you have to cherry-pick the New Testament Jesus to try and make Him fit the box you need to satisfy your own religion IMO
 
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Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?

All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wellbeing.

Whatsoever is sold in the market, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:

For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof. If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.

But if any man say unto you, this is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:

(1 Corinthians 10:22-28)
Read Full Chapter

Very clear. Although I know you do not accept the Pauline or Johannine writings, except when it suits you?
 
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@RJM @Cino
Anyhow, you just distract the issue away from what I was saying..

Most Christians I know, are in agreement with the ten commandments being "law".
Why do you think that is?
...
There are major sins and minor sins.
Why don't we discuss the major ones first .. eh?
 
My views have changed a little since I started this thread. I was thinking of my view of the kingdom of Jesus as being opposed to Christian doctrines but I don’t think so now. It might not be what Christians think of as His kingdom, but apart from that, I don’t think that there’s anything in Christian doctrines against serving and obeying Jesus above all others, and learning to live the way He says to live.
 
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Longfellow said:
I’m not a Christian, but I have a response to that. Jesus was not saying that the Jews had to abandon their law, but other people don’t have to follow it to enter His kingdom.
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..so what do they have to follow, do you think?
 
Now I’m thinking that I would like to discuss some of my disagreements with Christians about the teachings of Jesus, and this might be the best thread for that.

I don’t think think that I’m disagreeing with Christians about serving and obeying Him above all others, and learning to live the way He says to live. I also don’t see myself disagreeing with the Trinity doctrine, with the understanding that some of the words don’t mean what most people might think they mean. I am disagreeing with their salvation doctrine, and their doctrines about Jesus as God and the Son of God. I agree that He is God and the Son of God, and that He plays a unique role in salvation, but not in the ways that Christians think. I’ll need to look again at the creeds to see if I disagree about anything else.
 
Longfellow said:
He is God and the Son of God, and that He plays a unique role in salvation, but not in the ways that Christians think.
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Not all Christians interpret scripture the same way. There are core beliefs we all tend to share, but beyond that, much is subject to individual interpretation. Doesn't mean one is right and the other wrong though, just that we all see the world through our own eyes and experience.
 
Longfellow said:
Jesus was not saying that the Jews had to abandon their law, but other people don’t have to follow it to enter His kingdom.
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muhammad_isa said:
..so what do they have to follow, do you think?
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Other people? The laws of the land where they live.

(later) Actually, that applies to Jews also, along with the Jewish laws.
 
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Longfellow said:
I don’t think think that I’m disagreeing with Christians about serving and obeying Him above all others, and learning to live the way He says to live.
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muhammad_isa said:
..and what way is that?
Can you give us some examples?
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- The sermons.
- Washing each other's feet.
- What Paul says about love.
- What Paul says about the fruits of the Spirit.
 
Longfellow said:
- The sermons.
- Washing each other's feet.
- What Paul says about love.
- What Paul says about the fruits of the Spirit.
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How about these teachings, from the Gospels:

- Cutting off body parts if they cause you to sin? (Mt 18:8-9)
- Hating one's own family? (Luke 14:26)
- The incompatibility of serving God and making money? (Mt 6:14 and other places)
 
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