Translation and the challenges it poses

[Cino]

Yeah. But we were talking about the sanskrit because that's what Aup spoke about. Thus, this is all irrelevant. Hope you understand.

Relax. Around here, threads diverge and move. It's actually a lot of fun. After all, we two just had a massive dick-size-war about a really obscure topic for the past two days. Relevance is in the eyes of the participants.

 

[RJM]

Yeah. But we were talking about the sanskrit because that's what Aup spoke about. Thus, this is all irrelevant. Hope you understand.

Well obviously the whole purpose of translation is to convey the original meaning as closely as possible? Do these responses have to be so argumentative?

 

[Firedragon]

Well obviously the whole purpose of translation is to convey the original meaning as closely as possible? Do these responses have to be so argumentative?

Which one in particular are you talking about?

 

[Cino]

Which one in particular are you talking about?

That was kind of funny, made my day, @Firedragon.

 

[Aupmanyav]

'avera' seems to be an equivalent of 'a-vaira' (no-conflict or no-fight). Pali and Sanskrit are not far apart. I do not know Sanskrit to that extent, but a Sanskrit scholar can easily see the connections. Pali and the Jain Prakrit, after all, are local derivatives of Sanskrit, spoken in respective parts of Uttar Pradesh and Bihar. I would not give Pali a stature of an independent language.
For example, a Gujarati or a Marathi will discuss the same things in their language. They will still be using Sanskrit roots.

 

[Firedragon]

'avera' seems to be an equivalent of 'a-vaira'

That's absolutely correct. Vera is equivalent to vaira.

 

[Cino]

Since we're now three Sanskrit/Pali geeks, I'm interested in what @Aupmanyav thinks about the derivation of "sammanti".

 

[Aupmanyav]

On my first effort: sama - peacefully, equitably; anti (anta) - gets resolved, ends discord
Thus giving us the translation of: "Averena ca sammanti, esa dhammo sanantano".
As: "No-fight too peacefully/equitably gets resolved, that is the eternal dharma"
But even if we do not get Buddha word by word, the meaning is in no doubt.

 

[Cino]

Interesting, @Aupmanyav. How do you analyse the verses, is "sammanti" a conjugated verb, i.e. "they are appeased"?

Asking because that's what I think it is, and I could not make anything of @Firedragon's replies.

 

[Aupmanyav]

'They are appeased' and 'the conflict gets peacefully/equitably resolved' carry the same meaning.

 

[Firedragon]

On my first effort: sama - peacefully, equitably; anti (antim)

That's a different Sama Aup. It's Saa and ma pronounced as an aghosha. Peace. Tranquility. And yes, equitably settling something.

In the pali text its sandhi sarasandhi. Sarothyasaming osapilesiko kaasasthatham. The Sandhi is with Samma which also has "complete, or total" meaning in it. If its sama like you pointed out, the Visandhi goes absurd. When you visandhi the word the samma with two mayanu letters should not be there. There two M's. Not one. So you grammatically cannot lok two words without the last letter of the word. The last letter being the second m.

So it's samma. Not saama. Or there has to bee a word called "manthee".

In Pali, there are five types of Sandhi. Lopa, hraswa, dheega, or Dheergha, and Aadhesha, and Aagama. if its the word Saama, then the two M's or Mayanu will have to be a lop sandhi which will entirely ruin the whole word. Then the next word has to be manta which means "magic" or "curse", which won't make any sense.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I have only some knowledge of Sanskrit and none of Pali. Mine is a Hindu layman's translation who revers Buddha and his philosophy.

 

[Firedragon]

I have only some knowledge of Sanskrit and none of Pali. Mine is a Hindu layman's translation who revers Buddha and his philosophy.

But your knowledge of Hindi and Marathi etc etc is good enough for you to relate very well. So you will be able to understand the personality of the language very well. Even the Swara, the vayu, the Ooshna, everything will be relatable to you. Only thing is, Pali is a little different , but still pretty similar. Haha. Different but similar.

Only thing is, your translation of the verse was not quite right as I explained. Pali is not as complicated as Sanskrit but sanskrit is more similar to your other languages as you said. Sandhi in pali is easier than sanskrit, although they are similar.

Every word in these languages are made up of smaller words. This is called Sandhi. So when there is a long word with one meaning, if you have studied it from the language itself it's pretty straight forward for visandhi.

 

[Cino]

'They are appeased' and 'the conflict gets peacefully/equitably resolved' carry the same meaning.

I agree.

I still think that the "-anti" is simply the verb ending, but it doesn't change the meaning of the word.

Edit: quick photo of my favorite Pali Grammar: Steven Collins, "A Pali Grammar for Students", Bangkok, Silkworm Books, 2009. I like it a lot because it follows traditional Pali Grammarians, and presents the traditional grammatical terms alongside the western ones.

 

[Aupmanyav]

There is a Pali Dictionary also. At one time it was part of https://www.learnsanskrit.cc/. I will make a search for it. However, since I am attuned to Buddha's mind, I do not need dictionaries, and with my little knowledge of Sanskrit, I get my meaning.
Searched, got many, the first will do.

The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary

Online version of 'The Pali Text Society's Pali-English Dictionary' from the Digital Dictionaries of South Asia

dsal.uchicago.edu

Pāli Dictionary

Pāli to English, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Burmese Dictionary

dictionary.sutta.org

Pali-English Dictionary

www.buddha-vacana.org

 

[Firedragon]

There is a Pali Dictionary also. At one time it was part of https://www.learnsanskrit.cc/. I will make a search for it. However, since I am attuned to Buddha's mind, I do not need dictionaries, and with my little knowledge of Sanskrit, I get my meaning.
Searched, got many, the first will do.

The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary

Online version of 'The Pali Text Society's Pali-English Dictionary' from the Digital Dictionaries of South Asia

dsal.uchicago.edu

Pāli Dictionary

Pāli to English, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Burmese Dictionary

dictionary.sutta.org

Pali-English Dictionary

www.buddha-vacana.org

That's actually interesting.

For what do you use your sanskrit knowledge? I mean to get your meaning from what? What sources do you use for your "Buddhist mind".

This is an outside question only if you time, please give me a gist of what you mean.

Thank you very much in advance.

 

[Aupmanyav]

For what do you use your sanskrit knowledge? I mean to get your meaning from what? What sources do you use for your "Buddhist mind".
This is an outside question only if you time, please give me a gist of what you mean. Thank you very much in advance.

1. To get the meaning of what is written in Hindu scriptures and to get some idea about what Pali texts say.
2. I have been reading about Buddhist thought for a long time. I have my view about what Buddha wanted to say. It is sort of intuitive.
I discard what I believe are later modifications. My views are minimalists, sort of Hinayana (a term which I like better than Theravada).
You are welcome to criticize my view and I will be happy to answer your questions.

 

[Firedragon]

1. To get the meaning of what is written in Hindu scriptures and to get some idea about what Pali texts say.
2. I have been reading about Buddhist thought for a long time. I have my view about what Buddha wanted to say. It is sort of intuitive.
I discard what I believe are later modifications. My views are minimalists, sort of Hinayana (a term which I like better than Theravada).
You are welcome to criticize my view and I will be happy to answer your questions.

No no. Your view is great. Both approaches are good approaches.

Hmm. Hinayana is minimalistic you say. Yes, I understand what you say. Because you take a naturalistic approach, you have shed all the so called "theological" or "religious" aspects out of it and Theravada is more minimalistic than Mahayana. I understand. Because of that you like the Hinayana term more than Theravada. I get it.

 

[Cino]

In another thread, you wrote:

That's the reason I always ask for sources. It's not that one is dishonest or has a bad agenda. It's just a practice of epistemic ingenuity. That's why I ask the question "where do you get this from specifically".

By your own standard, let me get back to what you wrote earlier in this thread:

See Cino. I asked you what Samma means. Sammanthi is a conjunction of both words. If you don't know you can just say so. No problem. But I can see you are not prepared for that and this might end up in some kind of unnecessary banter for no reason. So I will just go on and explain.

So, where do you get this, specifically?

Asking because all sources I can find indicate otherwise, and I'm interested in your sources.

 

[Firedragon]

So, where do you get this, specifically?

Asking because all sources I can find indicate otherwise, and I'm interested in your sources.

Very good question.

My source of Pali as any Pali school that educate people is the Tipitaka and the tradition of the language taught in the script. It's great that you are asking for sources rather than making conjecture like you did and saying "Yes I am assuming" about a language that you don't understand from adam. Though this is just a hypocritical approach to ignore someones argument with a "Tu Quoque", let me give you the direct source. Since you claimed you can understand the script you will definitely understand better. Cheers.

Read Sutta Pitaka, Anguttara Nikayo, 6th volume, Dasaka Nipatho, Tathiyo Pannasako, Michchantha Suttang, Just before Bijja Sutthang, the last paragraph. I will give you a snapshot and you can read and see.

And also take a look at the dictionary meaning.

Now I would to see which "source:" you claim say otherwise. It will be an interesting read.

Thank you.