Religious books and a description of the Origins of the Universe according to science?

To continue...
OK, so now I knew that Zakir Naik was telling a huge lie about the Quran that supposedly knew that the Moon did not radiate its own light, but merely reflected light from the Sun. What the Muslim scholar tries to sell us ignorant listeners, is that the Light of the Sun is called a ‘Blazing torch’ (Siraaj) and the light of the moon is called ‘ a Lamp’ (Noor). They want us to believe that this ‘Noor’ does not have its own source of radiation.

The fact remains, because Maurice Buchaille said, “This only a verbal distinction, but how was a man, 1400 years ago in the middle of the desert supposed to give an explanation that the Moon reflects the light of the Sun, without getting confused?” this should be the greatest admission from any person clarifying that there is no description in the Quran to what the Islamic scholar claim about the Moon reflecting the light of the sun.

But I decided, lets see what else the Quran say about the reflective light of the Moon, this supposed ‘Noor’, and I found the following.

in Suras 71:16 and 10:5, the Quran say: Allah, made the moon a light (Noor).

But then made the terrible mistake to say that Allah is also a Noor (a light the same as the Moon.)!

Sura An-Noor 24:35 “Allah is the Light (noor) of the heavens and the earth.
The Parable of His Light (noor) is as if there were a Niche…”

Then it commits an even bigger mistake, surpassing idolatry!

It says that Muhammad is the source of light (Siraaj – blazing torch)!

Sura 33:45-46 Prophet, We have sent you as a witness, a bearer of glad news, a warner,
"And as a light (Siraaj) spreading light"

Not only did I find that the Quran has no clue that the Moon reflects light from the Sun, but it claims that Muhammad is the blazing torch of light and Allah the lamp of light!

Therefore, Muhammad is the light and his light reflects of from Allah!

Should this not be vice versa that God is LIGHT and His light reflects (Noor) from Muhammad?!

Well, I thought I needed to see what the Bible says about this small insignificant test I devised, and I was dumbfounded that the Bible did actually describe the reflection of light of the Sun from the Moon!

Isaiah 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

I thought, what?
If the Sun is darkened, the moon will not give her light? I did not see any confusion here at all.

The next word search produced this statement from the New Testament.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

OK, again. The Sun darkens and the Moon don’t shine.
Just as I twas thinking OK, this might be chance, I saw this description:



Isaiah 30:26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

Well, I was a wee bit impressed. Not only does the Bible say that if you remove the light of the Sun, the Moon will not shine…

But, it says that if you increase the light of the Sun, the moon will also shine more intensely!

Therefore, I had to conclude, that this very small insignificant test I devised to check Dr Zakir Naik’s claims about how well the Quran described Science, and how poor the Bible fails in its description, proved the contrary to what this Muslim scholar claimed.

In short, the Bible knows the Moons’ light is a reflection of the Sun, whilst the Quran does not.
Now I was in a predicament.
I am an atheist, and I do not believe in what the Bible says at all.
I wondered what will happen if I compared the Bible and the Quran on their descriptions on how God created the Universe. Could it be a viable investigation?
Surely both the Quran and the Bible will miserably fail such a correlation with what science said.
 
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T
Aupmanyav said:
Abdul Baha failed to mention the true expanse of the universe. 200 billion galaxies, on an average a 100 million stars in each galaxy, and Abudl Baha stops at just 100,000,000. Of course, he had no inkling about the expanse of the universe and neither as to how it got created. Where is heaven and where is hell (I thought Bahais do not believe in Heaven or Hell), and how come earth is the throne? Just a tiny planet of a tiny sun in a tiny galaxy. Well, what else can be expected of a person who never studied income earth is the throne? Just a tiny planet of a tiny sun in a tiny galaxy. Well, what else can be expected of a person who never went to a school!
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Thank you for the link of the Tablet of the Universe.
I will read it later today.
 
Tone Bristow-Stagg said:
There is no doubt that the Quran is the Word of God and that the Bible is a sure spiritual guide.

The most amazing description I have seen to date, on the topic of creation, comes from the Baha'i Writings by Abdul'baha called the "Tablet of the Universe". It quotes the Quran in a few places.

bahai-library.com

Bahá'í Library Online

Baha'i articles, books, translations, and historical materials
bahai-library.com bahai-library.com

It is a provisional translation.

The immensity of creation is mentioned from an Islamic tradition.

".....Consider the following well-known tradition and examine its meanings indicative of the vastness of the cosmos and its awesome limitless expanse: 'God, exalted be He, fashioned one hundred thousand, thousand lamps and suspended the Throne, the earth, the heavens and whatsoever is between them, even Heaven and Hell -- all of these in a single lamp. And only God knows what is in the rest of the lamps.' The fact that philosophers and sages have posited limits and restrictions for such matters is to be explained by the limitations of people~s minds and perceptions and the blindness of the followers of allusions, whose natures and intellects have been rendered dull and inanimate by the interposition of many veils...."

Imagine, all we currently know and can know of the creation that surrounds us, is but One Lamp of 100,000,000 lamps!

In other words, infinite.

The other great thing is, that all the worlds of God have their own creatures.

Regards Tony
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Sorry, I meant to reply to you.
TNX for the link.
I will read it later today.
 
OupaPiet said:
But I decided, lets see what else the Quran say about the reflective light of the Moon, this supposed ‘Noor’, and I found the following.

in Suras 71:16 and 10:5, the Quran say: Allah, made the moon a light (Noor).

But then made the terrible mistake to say that Allah is also a Noor (a light the same as the Moon.)!

Sura An-Noor 24:35 “Allah is the Light (noor) of the heavens and the earth.
The Parable of His Light (noor) is as if there were a Niche…”
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That's crazy..

Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The similitude of His light is as a niche wherein is a lamp. The lamp is in a glass. The glass is as it were a shining star. (This lamp is) kindled from a blessed tree, an olive neither of the East nor of the West, whose oil would almost glow forth (of itself) though no fire touched it. Light upon light, Allah guideth unto His light whom He will. And Allah speaketh to mankind in allegories, for Allah is knower of all things.
- Qur'an An-Nur -

Do you not understand what an allegory is?

allegory: a story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one.

Spiritual light !
 
muhammad_isa said:
That's crazy..

Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The similitude of His light is as a niche wherein is a lamp. The lamp is in a glass. The glass is as it were a shining star. (This lamp is) kindled from a blessed tree, an olive neither of the East nor of the West, whose oil would almost glow forth (of itself) though no fire touched it. Light upon light, Allah guideth unto His light whom He will. And Allah speaketh to mankind in allegories, for Allah is knower of all things.
- Qur'an An-Nur -

Do you not understand what an allegory is?

allegory: a story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one.

Spiritual light !
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Exactly.
The allegory in this regard is that Allah is reflecting the Light from Muhammad.
The Light is the source of Spiritual existence which lights the way for mankind.
This allegory means that Muhammad is the one making up the story, and shines it off as if Allah exists.

All I showed you is that if Muslim scholars claim that the word Siraaj is the source of light, and Noor a reflection of light, they are:
Making an allegory that Muhammad is the source of spiritual light, and Allah only reflects on Muhammad's words.

Bad, hu?
I agree that this is crazy.

As long as you agree that the Quran does not know that the Moon reflects light, but the Bible does, I am quite satisfied with your allegory.
 
OupaPiet said:
The Light is the source of Spiritual existence which lights the way for mankind.
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Correct..

OupaPiet said:
All I showed you is that if Muslim scholars claim that the word Siraaj is the source of light, and Noor a reflection of light, they are:
Making an allegory that Muhammad is the source of spiritual light, and Allah only reflects on Muhammad's words.
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Makes no sense .. Muslims believe that Muhammad was a man. and not God.

OupaPiet said:
As long as you agree that the Quran does not know that the Moon reflects light, but the Bible does, I am quite satisfied with your allegory.
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I don't look to the Bible or Qur'an to learn about science..
Why would I?
 
Aupmanyav said:
Abdul Baha failed to mention the true expanse of the universe. 200 billion galaxies, on an average a 100 million stars in each galaxy, and Abudl Baha stops at just 100,000,000. Of course, he had no inkling about the expanse of the universe and neither as to how it got created. Where is heaven and where is hell (I thought Bahais do not believe in Heaven or Hell), and how come earth is the throne? Just a tiny planet of a tiny sun in a tiny galaxy. Well, what else can be expected of a person who never studied income earth is the throne? Just a tiny planet of a tiny sun in a tiny galaxy. Well, what else can be expected of a person who never went to a school!
Click to expand...

You misunderstood.

All we can know is but one lamp, thus the known 200 billion galaxies, on an average a 100 million stars in each galaxy, is still only in one lamp.

Think bigger, there is another 100,000,000 universes, some maybe bigger than ours.

Regards Tony
 
OupaPiet said:
To continue...
Click to expand...
You may continue for all you want, but I do not perhaps believe even one word of what Torah, Bible, Quran or Kitab-i-Aqdas say.
Tone Bristow-Stagg said:
You misunderstood.
All we can know is but one lamp, thus the known 200 billion galaxies, on an average a 100 million stars in each galaxy, is still only in one lamp.
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Do you think I can fail to understand what you say after all these years of exchange of views? ;)
My lamp is not a God and does not dispatch prophets/sons/messengers/manifestations/mahdis; does not write or gets books written. It does not give morals or judge people - because there are no people. Nothing other than it exists. Our concept of lamp differs hugely. :D
 
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Your making 'creation, by God' is a conjecture. You have no evidence to support it.
 
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wil said:
Do too, do not, do too...

Come on, really?
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I have the evidence that proves to me that there is a creator and that creator, is the creator of all that exists and I have chosen that creator as the divine animator of all life: and I see the Supreme personality to have developed within this cycle of universal activity, as HIS only begotten Son who is equal to HIS Father and the only God to who I bend the Knee and I have the science to support my belief.

I am not, in any childish "Do too, do not, do too squabble my friend.

I have simply answered the questions put to me by the kid with the scribbling on his head.
 
a description of the Origins of the Universe according to science?


It was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, ‘The Son Of Man,’ who revealed to humanity, (as was recorded by Moses,) the story and the order of Creation, from when our world was formless and void, having neither shape or mass, but a seething liquid-like plasma of superhot electromagnetic energy, the quantum of which was photons, which have zero mass and no electric charge, but which carry angular and linear momentum, then the creation of the first light, followed by the division of the waters below (The Solar Nebula Cloud) from the waters above (The Galactic Nebula Cloud) from which our planets were formed, then the beginnings of life through evolution by design, on this particular planet.

First were the microscopic plant life, of which some evolved into aquatic creatures, then insects which took to the air, and amphibians, then reptiles and flying creatures, and later on, all wild and domestic critters, etc.

The story of creation was told to our primitive ancestors in its most basic form, knowing that the creation story would evolve with the evolution of the mind of man.

For the Word of God can be likened to a star that’s being ever brightened
By the mind of man reaching ever higher, but those who deviate, they’re liars.
In God’s word, man’s mind can grow but those outside, they’re like the snow.
That settles on the desert sand and will melt away before ‘I AM.’ ……. The Anointed.

This is the condensed account of creation as recorded in Genesis’.....…”In the beginning God created the universe, and the (heavens, and the earth) were formless and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep and God’s active force was moving on the face of the waters. Then God said let there be light.”

Here is the scientific theory of creation........In the beginning, there was the “BIG BANG” which is said to have spatially separated the supposed infinitely dense, infinitely hot, infinitesimally small singularity, this event spewed out a liquid like soup of electromagnetic energy in the trillions upon trillions of degrees, it was from the quantum of that plasma liquid-like electromagnetic energy that the earth and all the heavenly bodies would be created, and although, all that the earth was created from, was already there in the beginning, the earth at that time had neither constant shape or mass, which meant it was formless and void, and no suns had yet come into existence to light up the darkness of the expanding space. But there was momentum (God’s active force, which was moving on the face of the waters, or liquid-like plasma) within that ever-cooling cosmic cloud of wave particles, which wave particles are the quantum of that liquid like electromagnetic energy and are not really particles at all as they have zero mass and no electric charge, yet they carry angular and linear momentum.

One would expect, that those wave particles which are the quantum of the liquid like electromagnetic energy, would have continued to expand further and further away from each other in the expansion of Space and the universal building material.

But with the angular momentum of those waves, they collided with each other in nuclear fusion in the creation of the first basic sub-atomic particles. As the universal temperature dropped to some billions of degrees, the dark energy which was the expansion’s acceleration force, began to form into dark matter, hydrogen and helium, with trace quantities of lithium, beryllium, and boron.

As the universe expanded and cooled, more hydrogen molecules were formed, and from these, after some thirty million years of attraction, came the formation of the first gigantic stars, [Massive atomic reactors] from which the galaxies would later be created.

And God said, “Let there be light.” Which was not the light from the sun of this minor solar system within our Milky Way galaxy, which solar system would not be created for some nine billion years after the creation of those first massive stars that lit up the darkness of the bottomless pit, in which massive nuclear reactors the heavier elements were created.

Bursting into life and light throughout the primitive universe over an unknown period of time, those first-generation stars would have been thousands upon thousands of times as massive as our Sun and millions of times as bright, but each one burned for only a few million years before meeting a violent end, when they exploded out in a brilliant flash before collapsing in upon themselves creating the massive centrally condensed systems called ‘Black Holes.’

Was the earth created before our minor sun, as is revealed in the Bible? And did life begin to evolve on earth before our sun burst into life? And could the complexity of life as seen on the earth today, have evolved over the comparatively short period of a mere 4.6 billion years from the day when the earth was created?
 
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The Anointed said:
a description of the Origins of the Universe according to science?
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On the other hand, a more likely interpretation is that the sacred scribe is talking in a metaphysical, rather than physical, sense.

I rather think you're reading onto the text stuff which isn't there.

According to the text itself – the Hebrew, the Septuagint Greek (en arche) and the NT Greek (cf John 1:1) and Latin (in principio) – all translate the phrase 'in the beginning' in the sense of principle rather than a temporal process. Was a temporal process implied, they'd have used different terms.

So I read this text to infer a Divine and not a physical activity – if read as physics, the text refutes itself:
In the beginning God created heaven, and earth.
And the earth was void and empty, – ie formless.
and darkness was upon the face of the deep; – again, symbolic language as there was neither light nor dark for there to be darkness, nor was there dimension for there to be depth.
and the spirit of God moved over the waters – waters is, of course, a symbolic term.

The Anointed said:
Was the earth created before our minor sun, as is revealed in the Bible? And did life begin to evolve on earth before our sun burst into life? And could the complexity of life as seen on the earth today, have evolved over the comparatively short period of a mere 4.6 billion years from the day when the earth was created?
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No, no, and yes, in fact life is estimated at 3.6 billion years
 
Thomas said:
No, no, and yes, in fact life is estimated at 3.6 billion years
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ESTIMATED
This is one scientific theory as to the creation of our solar system some 9 billion years after the creation of those first massive stars that lit up the darkness of the expanding space.

Whether or not a better theory than that which we have today will develop, time will tell.

This theory would appear to support the biblical statement, that the process of the division of the waters above from the waters below, [See Genesis 1: 6; KJV] or the division of the solar nebula cloud from the greater Galactic nebula cloud, began some five billion years ago, and that the whole process took just a few hundred million years, about 400 million years in fact, and the creation of our entire solar system was completed by about 4.6 billion years ago.

It was from the galactic nebular cloud, which was the residue of the heavier elements that were exploded off with the great super nova, which was the death of one of those gigantic earlier first generation Stars, that our Milky-Way galaxy would be formed in the second generation of the universe, as the active universal forces brought about a division of the Solar nebular cloud [The Waters Below] from the Galactic nebular cloud [The Waters Above].

The accretion of the galactic nebula disk, which was being attracted to the central Black Hole around which it had begun to orbit, transferred angular momentum outward as it transferred mass inward, it was this that caused our solar nebula to begin to rotate and condense inward, bringing a division of the solar cloud, from the galactic cloud, or the waters above from the waters below.

Within the greater galactic nebular cloud, which was slowly beginning to revolve around the Black Hole that anchored it in space, a piece of the larger cloud complex started to collapse about five billion years ago. The cloud complex had already been "polluted" with dust grains from previous generations of stars, so it was possible to form the rocky terrestrial planets as gravity pulled the gas and dust together, forming a solar nebula. As the cloud=waters of the solar nebula collapsed, its slight rotation increased. This is because of the conservation of angular momentum.

Just like a dancer who spins faster as she pulls in her arms, the cloud began to spin as it collapsed. Eventually, the cloud grew hotter and denser in the centre, with a disk of gas and dust surrounding it that was hot in the centre but cool at the edges. As the disk got thinner and thinner, particles began to stick together and form clumps. Some clumps got bigger, as particles and small clumps stuck to them, eventually forming planets or moons. Genesis 1: 6—9. As the heavenly cloud was gathered together in one place, dry land, or rather planets began to form.

Near the centre of the condensing cloud, where planets like earth formed, only rocky material could stand the great heat. Icy matter settled in the outer regions of the disk along with rocky material, where the giant planets like Jupiter formed.

As the cloud continued to fall in, the centre would get so hot that it would eventually become a star and with a strong stellar wind, would blow away most of the gas and dust from which the planets of the solar system had been formed.

By studying meteorites, which are thought to be left over from this early phase of the solar system, scientists have found that the solar system is about 4.6 billion years old! As the solar nebula collapsed, the gas and dust heated up through collisions among the particles. The solar nebula heated up to around 3000 K so everything was in a gaseous form. The solar nebula's composition was similar to the present-day Sun's composition: about 93% hydrogen, 6% helium, and about 1% silicates and iron, and the density of the gas and dust increased toward the core where the proto-sun was: [PROTO SUN.]. The inner, denser regions collapsed more quickly than the outer regions.

PROTO-HUMANS WERE NOT HUMANS AND THE PROTO-SUN, WAS NOT YET OUR SUN.

Around Jupiter's distance from the proto-Sun the temperature was cool enough to freeze water (the so-called "snow line" or "frost line"). Further out from the proto-Sun, ammonia and methane were able to condense. There was a significant amount of water closer to the Proto-sun, but could not condense. When the solar nebula stopped collapsing it began cooling, though the core that would later form the Sun remained hot.

This meant that the outer parts of the solar nebula cooled off more than the inner parts closer to the hot proto-Sun. Only metal and rock materials could condense (solidify) at the high temperatures close to the proto-Sun. Therefore, the metal and rock materials could condense in all the places where the planets were forming. Volatile materials (like water, methane and ammonia) could only condense in the outer parts of the solar nebula.

Because the density of the solar nebula material increased inward, there was more water at Jupiter's distance than at the distances of Saturn, Uranus, or Neptune. The greater amount of water ice at Jupiter's distance from the proto-Sun helped it grow larger than the other planets. Although, there was more water closer to the proto-Sun than Jupiter, that water was too warm to condense. Material with the highest freezing temperatures condensed to form the chondrules that were then incorporated in lower freezing temperature material. Chondrules (from Ancient Greek chondros, meaning grain) are round grains found in chondrites. Chondrules form as molten or partially molten droplets in space before being accreted to their parent asteroids.

Any material that later became part of a planet underwent further heating and processing when the planet differentiated so the heavy metals sunk to the planet's core and lighter metals floated up to nearer the surface.

Because of its great compression, the core of the proto-Sun finally reached about 10 million Kelvin and after the planets of the solar system had been created, the hydrogen nuclei started fusing together to produce helium nuclei and a lot of energy. It was then that the proto-Sun "TURNED ON" and became our Sun, which produced the strong winds called T-Tauri winds named after the prototype star in the constellation Taurus.

These winds swept out the rest of the nebula that was not already incorporated into the planets. With most of the cocoon gas blown away, the new star itself becomes visible to the outside for the first time. This whole process took just a few hundred million years and was finished by about 4.6 billion years ago. At the distance of about one light year from the earth, is the great icy Dome, that is the boundary of the firmament of our heavens, in which the sun, moon, and planets of our solar system were created.

According to this theory the planets were created before the hydrogen nuclei within the condensing solar nebula cloud started fusing together to produce helium nuclei and a lot of energy which created our sun.
 
continued from previous post.

According to the Genesis narrative, it is on the second day that the Lord calls for a "firmament" to be in the "midst of the waters" to divide the waters:

"And God said, let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under (or within) the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day." (Genesis 1:6-8 KJV)

The term "firmament" according to the Creation account, is taken from the Hebrew: רָקִיעַ raqiya` raw-kee'-ah, which is defined by many scholars as an expanse, or the visible arch of the sky:—firmament, but a primitive root; “רָקַע raqa` raw-kah” means, to pound, hammer, to overlay (with thin sheets of metal):—beat, make broad, spread abroad (forth, over, out, into plates), stamp, stretch.

The creation of the firmament is associated with the placement of some sort of structure, and in some modern Bibles many modern scholars translate the Hebrew word raqia as a "dome" or "vault". The Hebrew language appears to imply that the firmament is a firm, fixed structure (FIRMament, which can now be seen as the spherical cloud of comets (Icy vault) in which our solar system was created from the solar nebula cloud that was divided from the greater galactic nebula cloud.

Unlike the orbits of the planets and the Kuiper Belt, which are pretty flat like a disk, the Oort Cloud is a spherical shell surrounding everything in our solar system. It's like a bubble with a thick shell. The Oort Cloud is made up of icy pieces of space debris.

"And God said, “Let there be lights within the firmament or vault to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."

(Genesis 1:14-16 KJV) This verse says that the Sun, Moon, and Stars=planets of our solar system, are "within" the firmament. Therefore, the waters that are "above the firmament=dome/vault" must be above the Sun, Moon and Stars=planets of our solar system, revealing that the waters which are referred to in Psalms 148:4; "Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that [be] above the heavens," belong to the greater galactic nebula cloud which has become our Milky Way Galaxy.

The Oort cloud, or the Opik-Oort cloud, which is named after Jan Oort, is a spherical cloud that surrounds our solar system, a cloud of predominantly icy objects such as comets that are comprised of mainly hydrogen, oxygen=water, ammonia and methane, and extends up to about a light year from the sun and defines the cosmographical boundary of our Solar System and the region of the suns gravitational dominance. Here is the Firmament, the great spherical vault within which is found the sun, moons and planets of our solar system, the dome of ice above us.

How thick is the Oort clous bubble; It will take about 300 years for Voyager 2 to reach the inner edge of the Oort Cloud and possibly 30,000 years to fly beyond it.

Knowing that the planets of our solar system were already created before the actual sun came into existence when the hydrogen nuclei within the condensing solar cloud started fusing together to produce helium nuclei and a lot of energy thereby creating our sun, we must now ask the question, “Did life on earth begin to evolve before the creation of the sun?” As is recorded in the Bible. And can life exist without actual sunlight? Proof of this is to be found in the darkest depths of our oceans, where life has evolved around the extremely hot and noxious gas vents over six miles beneath the surface where sunlight does not and cannot penetrate.
 
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