THE SLAUGHTER OF THE INNOCENTS

Jesus is our only Redeemer and we need no other.

Please tell me what you think "co-redeemer" means.

...if not the bit about sending Mary. That part was a deal breaker for me.

Was it the part where Jesus said that God ab aeterno thought in advance of creating the soul that was to be the soul of the Mother of God Incarnate? If not, send me the video.
 
Please tell me what you think "co-redeemer" means.



Was it the part where Jesus said that God ab aeterno thought in advance of creating the soul that was to be the soul of the Mother of God Incarnate? If not, send me the video.
Taken from a Catholic answers website: What they do mean when they refer to the Mother of Christ as the Co-redemptrix is that Mary uniquely cooperated with Jesus and entirely subordinate to and dependent upon Jesus, in the historic work of Redemption.

Jesus is our Redeemer and placing that position on anyone else for the the benefit of the saints is not something I can accept. The Holy Spirit points us to Jesus and Jesus points us to the Father. Nowhere does Jesus point us to Mary. Mary was a sinner and was in need of a redeemer herself.

I feel like this was Jesus last act as a human on earth. Making sure His mother was taken care of. Anything more than that is contrived IMO

John 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

Here is the video
 
Wait, so, you think Catholics are saying that Mary is our redeemer?

No. Co- and not all believe this.

Can't find it. If you saw it on YouTube, can you send the YouTube link for it?
Sorry about that around the 3 minute mark.

 
No. Co- and not all believe this.

One thing you do believe is that Mary gave birth to the Messiah. Well, that's just one of the many reasons why She's called "co-redeemer," or "co-redemptrix," because by bringing Him into the world that's one way She helped Jesus accomplish His mission as being Redeemer.

Sorry about that around the 3 minute mark.


No worries, thank you. Ok so the video is of the dictation that Maria Valtorta received from Jesus on June 3rd, 1943, and the full quote about Mary is this:

"You have exploited the coming of My Mother for human purposes; you have made it the object of wrangling and commerce. Don't you know that Mary is my Temple, and My Temple is a house of prayer and not a den of thieves? Her words—so affectionate, so imploring, so tearful, for you that have killed Her Son, and you aren't even able to make such sacrifice bear fruit—have sounded for you like useless ditties."

"The coming of My Mother" refers to the apparitions of Mary. If you Google, for many, many, years Mary has been appearing in various locations around the world, and still does in present-day, relaying messages to help lead souls to Her Son, Jesus. The rest of the quote is Jesus addressing and admonishing the people who ignore His Mother's words and instead exploit Her to make money, etc.
 
Where did Herod the Great slaughter the young boys 2 years and below? In the area around Bethlehem of Judah as is the tradition according to St Helena the mother of the founder of the Roman church of Emperor Constantine, or in the area around the Bethlehem of Galilee as proven by the Holy Scriptures?
Talk of history and not of Christian scriptures. Did that ever happen?
Critics point out there's no record to authenticate Scripture.

But then, as Bethlehem was not a major location, there's no way it could be so many – estimated numbers count no more than 40.
So it is a made-up story that only gullible will accept, like the 3 million of Moses who wandered in Sinai for 40 years.
 
Last edited:
Where did Herod the Great slaughter the young boys 2 years and below? In the area around Bethlehem of Judah as is the tradition according to St Helena the mother of the founder of the Roman church of Emperor Constantine, or in the area around the Bethlehem of Galilee as proven by the Holy Scriptures?
Going over old ground ...

Holy Scripture places the birth in Bethlehem in Judah, as did St Helena, I thought? The Bethlehem of Galilee theory has been discounted?
 
As for the Slaughter of the Innocents, we'll probably never know.

Whether it occurred or not, scholars estimate a very small number killed, somewhere around 10? Hardly the kind of thing to be mentioned in the records, especially concerning Herod who, it the sources we have are anything to go by, this is small-fry ... so did it happen? Who is to say, but I would not rule it out, based on Herod's modus operandi.
 
No. Co- and not all believe this.
Among the titles accorded to the Blessed Virgin, the prefix 'Co' is really, really problematic, as the common contemporary English reading of the term is 'equal to', whereas the proper Latin translation is 'with' but does not imply equality.

Long story short, I tend to agree that such titles are almost bound to cause confusion – even among Catholics – let alone in dialogue with non-Catholics. Even the idea of the 'veneration of Mary' borders on the idolatrous for some, and I'm not entirely sure that all my Catholic brothers and sisters distinguish between the two ideas, 'venerate' and 'idolise', quite as precisely as perhaps they should.

I can provide the historical development of such titles and their grounding in understanding – they go back al long way – the understanding is based on her co-operation in the Incarnation according to Luke: "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word" (1:38).

+++

What role does Mary play in all this? First and foremost, it's her command recorded in John: "Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it" (2:5) – and that's an order!

+++

If you ask the deep me, than I'd speak about the relation of Mary to the soul ... and that fact that we, too, are in a way co-redeemers ion that we actively participate in our redemption. Mary, in that sense, is the role model of the interior life.

+++
 
Where did Herod the Great slaughter the young boys 2 years and below? In the area around Bethlehem of Judah as is the tradition according to St Helena the mother of the founder of the Roman church of Emperor Constantine, or in the area around the Bethlehem of Galilee as proven by the Holy Scriptures?
1
This Herod reigned over both, but only Bethlehem in Judea was a town, the other a small village.
If you say you go to Berlin, everyone will understand that you go to the well-known city, not to the village in the very north of Germany or in New Hampshire. Likewise, mentioning Bethlehem without a concretisation means the town in Judea, which is the home town of King David.
2
This town, according to Matthew 2, was selected right for this reason, that it is the home town of David.
3
There's no evidence from non -Christan sources that Herod did this. In particular, it's not mentioned in the Antiquities, although Josephus mentioned many misdeeds of this king.
4
Luke and Matthew agree in little concerning the birth and childhood of Jesus, but they do agree in that he was born in Bethlehem of Judea. Critical authors suspect that this may only have been written because they wanted to underline that he is a descendant of David, which was the expectation for the Messiah. If so, it's just this town that makes sense. If we see the fact that both authors agree here and report truly according to their knowledge, it's also Jerusalem of Judea.

It doesn't make sense to assume that there's been a confusion and he was indeed born in Bethlehem of Galilee.
 
According to the Catholic Church, Maria Valtorta's writings are permissible for publication, reading, and promoting. They leave it up to each individual to decide if it's of supernatural origin and for their spiritual benefit or not.
That's not quite the whole story ...

The book was placed on the Index of banned books, and when the index was lifted, that did not give the OK for publication. Morally, as then Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict) said (in L'Osservatore Romano June 15, 1966): "The Index retains its moral force despite its dissolution."

Further comment followed:
"The 'visions' and 'dictations' referred to in the work, "The Poem of the Man-God" are simply the literary forms used by the author to narrate in her own way the life of Jesus. They cannot be considered supernatural in origin."

The best that can be said for "The Poem of the Man-God" is that it is a bad novel. This was summed up in the L'Osservatore Romano headline, which called the book "A Badly Fictionalized Life of Jesus."

+++

A brief look on the web and I found this, a critique in The Catholic World Report by the medievalist Sandra Miesel

“A monument to pseudo-religiosity”: A case against The Poem of the Man-God

The Poem’s fundamental flaw is its claim to compensate for the inadequacies of the Gospels. As Jesus himself explains to Valtorta, the New Testament needs to be supplemented (I: p. 432) because of the evangelists’ “unbreakable Jewish frame of mind.” Their “flowery and pompous” Hebrew style kept them from writing everything that God wished. (V: p. 947) So nineteen centuries later, he finds a worthy secretary in Valtorta, his “Little John,” to expand what the Apostle St. John and the others wrote. “There is nothing of my own in this work,” she insists. (I: p. 57) She presents herself as a mere transmitter of Divine content.

But Hebrew is no “flowery” language. Neither is the simple and concrete koine Greek, in which at least three of the Gospels were composed. Moreover, the evangelist Luke was Greek, not Jewish. Nevertheless, Jesus denounces future critics of the Poem who dare to search for mistakes “in this work of divine bounty.” (V: pp. 751-52) The Poem is self-authenticating and any discrepancies were put in it by Jesus himself. (V: p. 753)

Valtorta’s own prose, however, is flowery in the extreme. Consider her page long description of newborn baby Mary (I: p. 24-25) wherein her fists “are two rose buds that split the green of their sepals and show their silk within.” Her figures of speech monotonously feature flowers, jewels, and fabric. The literary effect is further hampered by her fondness for exotic words (“noctules” for bats) and translators’ clumsiness (a line of laden donkeys is rendered as an “asinine cavalcade.”)

The Poem also presumes to “correct” the received text of Scripture. Valtorta’s reading of John 2:4 adds a novel “still” to Christ’s remark concerning the wine at Cana: thereby making it a comment on their own relationship: “Woman, what is there still between me and you?” (I: pp. 283-84) But her reading has no basis in the Vulgate or in any translation into a modern vernacular from the original Greek. The Poem presumes to place itself above the Bible and “Little John” beyond criticism.

Despite claiming a purely celestial origin, the Poem somehow incorporates legendary material from the Apocrypha (ex.” The Acts of St. Paul and Thecla), The Golden Legend, The Meditations of Pseudo-Bonaventure, the revelations of St. Birgitta, and other medieval texts. (Is she borrowing from Carmen when Mary Magdalen tries to attract Jesus’ notice by throwing a rose at him?) Valtorta is at odds with the revelations of Maria de Agreda and Bl. Anne Catherine Emmerich in chronology, familial relationships, and details of key events such as the Passion and Assumption. For instance, in the Poem Mary lives and dies in Jerusalem, not Ephesus as the other two visionaries say. The personal stories of the Apostles, however, aren’t traditional. Peter is a short, middle-aged buffoon; Simon is an actual “Canaanite” and not Jesus’ cousin. Judas gets far more coverage than all the other Apostles put together.


+++

Valtorta's Holy Land is a 'flower-strewn fantasy world', what little she knows about first century Palestine and Jerusalem – and clearly, it seems, she knows little – could have come from maps and study aids commonly bound in Catholic Bibles.

Her landscapes, sets, props, and costuming recall soft, gilt-touched Italian holy cards. She is amazingly ignorant of the local living conditions. Her houses resemble Italian farmhouses with fireplaces, porches, and kitchen gardens. The rich enjoy jasmine pergolas and hedged gardens closed with iron gates. The countryside abounds with apple orchards. fields of rye, stands of cactus and agave. Apples are ubiquitous. Dates, figs, and olives seldom appear; lentils, chickpeas, or onions never. People routinely drink fresh milk, even honey-water and cider, but wine scarcely ever appears. The screwdriver and the iron horseshoe are in use, although they were unknown in ancient Palestine.

Valtorta acknowledges her confusion about the layout of the Temple, but still erroneously pictures it as having multiple gilded domes, angel-headed capitals, and a choir of maidens. Not only does Jesus have a bar mitzvah, a ceremony which didn’t yet exist, everything described is false, even to the name of the Bible book he reads as a “test” administered by a bored Temple functionary. Although speaking the Divine Name was taboo, Jesus himself says “Yaweh. “Jehovah”, a word unknown in antiquity, is freely used by other speakers, including Mary and Peter.

But Valtorta’s anachronisms are not nearly as objectionable as her distorted characterizations of Jesus and Mary. They are, of course, fair-haired, blue-eyed, alabaster-skinned and straight-nosed, quite unlike the swarthy Jews around them. A pale complexion—usually but not necessarily—signifies great holiness. (Note that Mary Magdalene and girlish John are fair while Judas is dark.) A hooked nose, however, is always an ominous feature.

+++

This is just the start of a thorough critique by someone who has read the entire corpus.
 
Back
Top